5 ms·

This is a move on the right direction, and is better than nothing. However, I think that a better move is to force HW platforms (maybe starting at a certain ma

This is a move on the right direction, and is better than nothing. However, I think that a better move is to force HW platforms (maybe starting at a certain magnitude) to let the users use any software market they desire. This way Apple and Google can continue forcing the apps on their own markets to use their payment systems and "keep the users safe", while the other markets can do whatever they like

oever 5y ago
I would go further: software should always be optional in any hardware purchase and the price of hardware with software should be higher than the price of the hardware alone. Discount bundles with software + hardware should not be allowed. So no iPhone + iOS or laptop + Windows as one item. Selling hardware and software separately ensures that the hardware can be repurposed with independently sourced software. That gives control to the user and reduces e-waste. This should include 'firmware'. The benefit for the manufacturer is that they can charge for software updates. But the consumer can choose to get the update from elsewhere.
- fsflover 5y ago
  So basically what Pine64 is doing.
  - Avamander 5y ago
    One vendor who can ship a product that is very old and still not truly-fully supported. It's a tremendous task that takes more than enthusiasts for great results.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    Basically what a large chunk of the PC world was for a few decades.
- oshiar53-0 5y ago
  The real issue here is DRM and nonstandard/undocumented* platform interface (e.g. fixed attestation keys and tamper-protected chips preventing efficient RE work). Even if they manage to comply, competitors (even free software options) would still be locked out of market and the no-OS option would be next to useless to average users. *edit
  - Avamander 5y ago
    > The real issue here is DRM and nonstandard platform interface Undocumented hardware, really. It's very hard to run anything if you can't even init the chipset.
- throwaway59553 5y ago
  This is such an awful take. First of all 95% of consumers have no idea about how software and hardware works, they'd have to install the OS, drivers and basic programs. Most consumers value commodity above all, and they are more than willing to pay for it.
  - TotempaaltJ 5y ago
    It seems reasonable to me that a small but not insignificant market could emerge around providing convenience for this.
  - detaro 5y ago
    So they can choose the option to have the hardware with software and pay for it? Consistent with parent's proposal.
rntksi 5y ago
What does HW mean here? Handheld Wearable? Would that mean letting e.g. Sony PS5 devices allow homebrew markets to be used legally on their consoles? That would be awesome for the consumers.
- saganus 5y ago
  'Hardware' probably
  - rntksi 5y ago
    Ah. Agreed. Then let's solve the problem of printers altogether. Why let them enforce the use of only certain ink refills? Surely that also is monopolistic behaviour? In markets in SE Asia, I've seen people still use older Canon models because it allows them to fill their ink cartridges and beat the cost of having to buy official ink cartridges. Those printer still work well afterwards. A business I once consulted for had a 10 years old printer that still was chugging on happily with cheap ink fills.
    - nimish 5y ago
      If the ftc had teeth it would be good for it to a enforce restraint of trade laws against hardware lock-in like this. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Why let them enforce the use of only certain ink refills? Surely that also is monopolistic behaviour? Who has a monopoly? Anticompetitive behaviours are legal if you aren’t a monopoly—they’re what businesses call moats.
- yuvalr1 5y ago
  Yeah... Maybe hardware is a bit broader than what I had in my mind. My thoughts currently are "if it has one app market, then it has to have more". I didn't mean firmware. This sounds like an interesting discussion for another day...
1-6 5y ago
Remember Windows K or Windows KN? These were specifically made for the Korean market in the days when Windows Media Player or Windows Messenger were blocked by the Korean FTC because of its dominant position. You'll probably see something similar to keep the Korean government happy.
sagarm 5y ago
Android already supports installing third party apps that can install other apps. For example, the Humble Bundle installer.

oever 5y ago

I would go further: software should always be optional in any hardware purchase and the price of hardware with software should be higher than the price of the hardware alone. Discount bundles with software + hardware should not be allowed. So no iPhone + iOS or laptop + Windows as one item. Selling hardware and software separately ensures that the hardware can be repurposed with independently sourced software. That gives control to the user and reduces e-waste. This should include 'firmware'. The benefit for the manufacturer is that they can charge for software updates. But the consumer can choose to get the update from elsewhere.

fsflover 5y ago
So basically what Pine64 is doing.
- Avamander 5y ago
  One vendor who can ship a product that is very old and still not truly-fully supported. It's a tremendous task that takes more than enthusiasts for great results.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  Basically what a large chunk of the PC world was for a few decades.
oshiar53-0 5y ago
The real issue here is DRM and nonstandard/undocumented* platform interface (e.g. fixed attestation keys and tamper-protected chips preventing efficient RE work). Even if they manage to comply, competitors (even free software options) would still be locked out of market and the no-OS option would be next to useless to average users. *edit
- Avamander 5y ago
  > The real issue here is DRM and nonstandard platform interface Undocumented hardware, really. It's very hard to run anything if you can't even init the chipset.
throwaway59553 5y ago
This is such an awful take. First of all 95% of consumers have no idea about how software and hardware works, they'd have to install the OS, drivers and basic programs. Most consumers value commodity above all, and they are more than willing to pay for it.
- TotempaaltJ 5y ago
  It seems reasonable to me that a small but not insignificant market could emerge around providing convenience for this.
- detaro 5y ago
  So they can choose the option to have the hardware with software and pay for it? Consistent with parent's proposal.

rntksi 5y ago

What does HW mean here? Handheld Wearable? Would that mean letting e.g. Sony PS5 devices allow homebrew markets to be used legally on their consoles? That would be awesome for the consumers.

saganus 5y ago
'Hardware' probably
- rntksi 5y ago
  Ah. Agreed. Then let's solve the problem of printers altogether. Why let them enforce the use of only certain ink refills? Surely that also is monopolistic behaviour? In markets in SE Asia, I've seen people still use older Canon models because it allows them to fill their ink cartridges and beat the cost of having to buy official ink cartridges. Those printer still work well afterwards. A business I once consulted for had a 10 years old printer that still was chugging on happily with cheap ink fills.
  - nimish 5y ago
    If the ftc had teeth it would be good for it to a enforce restraint of trade laws against hardware lock-in like this. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Why let them enforce the use of only certain ink refills? Surely that also is monopolistic behaviour? Who has a monopoly? Anticompetitive behaviours are legal if you aren’t a monopoly—they’re what businesses call moats.
yuvalr1 5y ago
Yeah... Maybe hardware is a bit broader than what I had in my mind. My thoughts currently are "if it has one app market, then it has to have more". I didn't mean firmware. This sounds like an interesting discussion for another day...

1-6 5y ago

Remember Windows K or Windows KN? These were specifically made for the Korean market in the days when Windows Media Player or Windows Messenger were blocked by the Korean FTC because of its dominant position. You'll probably see something similar to keep the Korean government happy.

sagarm 5y ago

Android already supports installing third party apps that can install other apps. For example, the Humble Bundle installer.