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I’m one of those “All is fine, leave me alone” who is planning to leave the company soon. My reasons: - I take pride on what I do, I really care a lot about my

I’m one of those “All is fine, leave me alone” who is planning to leave the company soon. My reasons: - I take pride on what I do, I really care a lot about my career, but my main motivation for working 9-5 is my paycheck. I want more money but not more responsibilities (sounds crazy, I know, but the outcome I produce allows me to ask for this). No company out there is going to give me a free salary raise, hence I switch jobs.

MaxikCZ 5y ago
I dont claim to have significant experience with job market, but I wouldnt throw the possibility of "free salary rise" out of the window without even asking first.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  Most people don't ask because the raise is lower than switching jobs. Some people also believe that their work speak for themselves and they shouldn't have to explicit ask for a raise.
  - johnnyanmac 5y ago
    >Some people also believe that their work speak for themselves and they shouldn't have to explicit ask for a raise. Sure. but closed mouths don't get fed. That's how we end up in the opposite situation that brought about this topic. Or worse, the oft-common "promotion" of a happy IC to management role who frankly isn't a good manager, despite being an amazing IC.
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      > closed mouths don't get fed IMO, it's the manager's responsibility to advocate on behalf of the employee, especially if they want to retain them. There's also the matter that a raise doesn't need a promotion. Don't promote people upwards unless they are willing and already working at this level. Give them a simple raise instead.
      - zonethundery 5y ago
        Agree, but then one is completely dependent on the manager being a thoughtful participant in the corporate meta game. The employee asking makes it _easier_ for the manager to advocate on their behalf.
      - jasonshaev 5y ago
        > There's also the matter that a raise doesn't need a promotion. This is a critical point. I've been a manager at companies where the primary, and sometimes only way, to get someone a raise is to promote them because of strict salary bands defined by level. This creates a perverse incentive to promote too early. Salary bands are usually in place to -- ostensibly -- make sure salaries are fair. Fair salaries are a good thing. That being said, there HAS to be a mechanism to reward top performers with additional cash that doesn't require promotion otherwise it can feel like "teaching to the test."
        jacobr1 5y ago
        They other factor is matching the pay bands to the market correctly. If the HR team outsources this to national averages rather than assessing peer companies, especially in software, the bands are going to be too low. Which means if want to retain anyone (not just your high performers, but your average employees) you are forced to inflate to just match market rates.
        setr 5y ago
        Usually I see this in the form of bonuses, especially ones that will basically always trigger unless you piss someone off (e.g. based on boss’s performance review, where you both know it’s just going be approved unless you really fuck up). Though this still maintains the risk/burden on you; e.g. boss changes; but it keeps HR happy, lawsuits away, and employees with a proper paybump
        dagw 5y ago
        Usually I see this in the form of bonuses, especially ones that will basically always trigger Every place I worked bonuses are decided according to a strict formula based on the performance of an entire departments and even the company as a whole. There is no way to reward an individual or even a project group with a bonus unless the whole larger office also hit their targets.
    - ravenstine 5y ago
      That is a reflection of the incentive structure of most companies. It's not overtly in the interest of the business to pay their employees more money without extracting more labor from them. If a business either cared about or was at least cognizant of employee satisfaction, then rewarding good work would be a part of the management team's culture. The initiative management usually takes is in giving out new titles to employees and raises that aren't that far off from inflation, which is essentially just milking more out of employees they think will handle more work for roughly the same cost. What you are essentially saying is that employees should beg not to be devalued, which might make sense in a contractor-client relationship, but W2 employment comes with such a tilted balance of power (especially with non-competes and clauses that bar doing work for other companies on the side) that there just isn't that much to gain from trying to negotiate. Employees are better off changing jobs every few years so they can completely shed any baggage from their last position and get a much fatter paycheck. (industry variations notwithstanding) This isn't to say that I think that people are being sinister. It's just behavior that the system incentivizes.
  - whywhywhywhy 5y ago
    >Some people also believe that their work speak for themselves and they shouldn't have to explicit ask for a raise. I used to think that too but at the end of the day if you don't ask you don't get. Doesn't matter how you wish things were.
    - hamburglar 5y ago
      For what it’s worth, I have literally never asked for a raise in 30 years and have had my pay double in the span of two years at multiple companies. I am an individual contributor making an embarrassingly good total comp. Maybe the key is that deep down, I keep trying to provide value commensurate with what they pay me, and I never feel like I get there.
      - benfrancom 5y ago
        Perhaps if you negotiated, you could have gotten substantially more?
        hamburglar 5y ago
        Substantially more guilt- based productivity maybe. I think I’ll be fine.
- circlefavshape 5y ago
  +1 First step: ask for a raise, even a substantial one. You mightn't get it, but you might, and it's a lot less hassle than changing jobs
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Don't you generally need to get an offer to have leverage/know your market worth? The hassle is mostly prepping for the interviews. If I can't cut out that step, I am basically being saved the effort of cleaning up my desk and going to a new one.
    - kevinmchugh 5y ago
      Talk to your friends and coworkers about salaries. No one needs to reveal where they're at, but just talk about what the market's paying for relevant employees. Also ask them if their company is hiring and has reasonable interviewing practices. Not everyone makes candidates jump through hoops.
      - pc86 5y ago
        Everyone revealing where they're at exactly (cash + bonus + stock + extra perks/PTO/whatever), while potentially a little uncomfortable in the beginning, is better for everyone long-term. I used to be against it, if only because I was typically at the top of the pay band for my role so had little to "gain" from the practice, but I've come around the last couple years. There's really very little downside, even if you're a top performer. 1. People who are legitimately being taken advantage of can more quickly realize it and either work to correct it or leave. 2. Top earners should be able to justify their outsized compensation to others, including peers. 3. Some people just legitimately don't know you can negotiate things like non-discretionary bonuses, extra PTO, etc. 4. Maybe your company pays everyone below-market, not just you, and at least knowing this will make it easier to decide if it's worth the lower pay (for QOL/WLB or whatever) or if you want to leave.
        SaltyBackendGuy 5y ago
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I can get a free salary raise of 3% when staying, or 20% when leaving. To be fair, I took their matching counteroffer, but that would not have happened without me leaving in the first place.
  - srvance 5y ago
    I make it clear that things aren't working as soon as I can without giving ultimatums. If that isn't enough to trigger a response, then a desperate counter-offer is doing it for the wrong reasons.
- nly 5y ago
  Beyond a threshold salary, where your lifestyle is already comfortable, salary is unlikely to be the primary reason you look for a new job. Even if your current employer match, it's probably better long term for you to move on with your career and garner broader experience
pc86 5y ago
You only know this if you ask for it and are denied. I can think of multiple times in my career (at least 3 or 4 over 11-12 years) where I asked for a raise without any corresponding promotion or increase in responsibility, and got it with little to no haggling. It doesn't (necessarily) mean you're underpaid currently, it's totally possible your boss recognizes your contributions, wants you to be happy, and has the budget to give you what you want or close to it.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Or you ask, and get flagged as a troublemaker. No thanks. I'd rather not risk dismissal from a stable job while planning my jump to the next thing.
  - pc86 5y ago
    Asking for a raise doesn't get you "flagged as a troublemaker" unless you're really an ass about it.
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      You are assuming that the management is rational at your company. That's quite a big 'if'.
      - ralgozino 5y ago
        If they flag you and management is not rational that's one big red flag to leave that place ASAP
        qqtt 5y ago
        This is the thing that many people in this discussion are missing. There are many many many bad managers out there. Maybe this thread has all the good tech managers in the industry who would never do anything against their employees interest - but that isn't the reality facing most tech workers. In my experience - good managers tend to get promoted quickly, while average/below average line managers tend to stagnate. In this environment, it's likely most line managers aren't the greatest managers and the ones interacting directly with ICs have a lot of skills to develop in the manager role. The reality of most people is that they go to the job for a paycheck and put up with the (bad) management as a cost of that. In this environment, the most effective path towards higher pay is switching jobs, instead of risking navigating the inclinations of typically bad management.
logosmonkey 5y ago
Yeah, if I want more money I won't look for a promotion in my company because the salary increase will be something like 5%, maybe, due to the way internal promotions work in most corporations. I'll go somewhere else where I can get the same job I'm doing but negotiate a much better pay bump. Every significant pay increase I've had in my career has been by moving companies. I've never had anywhere near the same % increase with internal promotions.
- SaltyBackendGuy 5y ago
  > I'll go somewhere else where I can get the same job I'm doing but negotiate a much better pay bump Can confirm this works in our current employment market in the US for Software Engineers. In fact, I have less responsibilities because I don't know anything about the tech or product yet and got a 30% pay increase (granted I was close to underpaid). Obviously YMMV.
- clipradiowallet 5y ago
  I've had the same experience - going to do the same job for another company is how you end up with 20% or more increases in pay. I've never gotten more than 10%(and that was just once) from a current employer. What's worse, if you do get the 10% bump, their attitude shifts to thinking you owe them for it - or at least my employer's attitude did.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    This gets brought up here lots, but the whole "leave for 20% more pay" thing only is true earlier in your career. You will eventually plateau. Your next job switch will maybe be 15-20%, your next one 10-15%, etc. until you reach the inevitable compensation plateau. I'm over 20 years into my career and my last job change was for +1% or so, and I looked! No company would offer more.
    - nly 5y ago
      So then your strategy shifts, right? You start looking for more interesting, novel, less stressful or more stimulating work for the same pay.
tw600040 5y ago
// I want more money but not more responsibilities (sounds crazy, I know, Not really. wanting less money and more responsibilities is what would be crazy.
normalasnorfolk 5y ago
Ditto

MaxikCZ 5y ago

I dont claim to have significant experience with job market, but I wouldnt throw the possibility of "free salary rise" out of the window without even asking first.

arvinsim 5y ago
Most people don't ask because the raise is lower than switching jobs. Some people also believe that their work speak for themselves and they shouldn't have to explicit ask for a raise.
- johnnyanmac 5y ago
  >Some people also believe that their work speak for themselves and they shouldn't have to explicit ask for a raise. Sure. but closed mouths don't get fed. That's how we end up in the opposite situation that brought about this topic. Or worse, the oft-common "promotion" of a happy IC to management role who frankly isn't a good manager, despite being an amazing IC.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    > closed mouths don't get fed IMO, it's the manager's responsibility to advocate on behalf of the employee, especially if they want to retain them. There's also the matter that a raise doesn't need a promotion. Don't promote people upwards unless they are willing and already working at this level. Give them a simple raise instead.
    - zonethundery 5y ago
      Agree, but then one is completely dependent on the manager being a thoughtful participant in the corporate meta game. The employee asking makes it _easier_ for the manager to advocate on their behalf.
    - jasonshaev 5y ago
      > There's also the matter that a raise doesn't need a promotion. This is a critical point. I've been a manager at companies where the primary, and sometimes only way, to get someone a raise is to promote them because of strict salary bands defined by level. This creates a perverse incentive to promote too early. Salary bands are usually in place to -- ostensibly -- make sure salaries are fair. Fair salaries are a good thing. That being said, there HAS to be a mechanism to reward top performers with additional cash that doesn't require promotion otherwise it can feel like "teaching to the test."
      - jacobr1 5y ago
        They other factor is matching the pay bands to the market correctly. If the HR team outsources this to national averages rather than assessing peer companies, especially in software, the bands are going to be too low. Which means if want to retain anyone (not just your high performers, but your average employees) you are forced to inflate to just match market rates.
      - setr 5y ago
        Usually I see this in the form of bonuses, especially ones that will basically always trigger unless you piss someone off (e.g. based on boss’s performance review, where you both know it’s just going be approved unless you really fuck up). Though this still maintains the risk/burden on you; e.g. boss changes; but it keeps HR happy, lawsuits away, and employees with a proper paybump
        dagw 5y ago
        Usually I see this in the form of bonuses, especially ones that will basically always trigger Every place I worked bonuses are decided according to a strict formula based on the performance of an entire departments and even the company as a whole. There is no way to reward an individual or even a project group with a bonus unless the whole larger office also hit their targets.
  - ravenstine 5y ago
    That is a reflection of the incentive structure of most companies. It's not overtly in the interest of the business to pay their employees more money without extracting more labor from them. If a business either cared about or was at least cognizant of employee satisfaction, then rewarding good work would be a part of the management team's culture. The initiative management usually takes is in giving out new titles to employees and raises that aren't that far off from inflation, which is essentially just milking more out of employees they think will handle more work for roughly the same cost. What you are essentially saying is that employees should beg not to be devalued, which might make sense in a contractor-client relationship, but W2 employment comes with such a tilted balance of power (especially with non-competes and clauses that bar doing work for other companies on the side) that there just isn't that much to gain from trying to negotiate. Employees are better off changing jobs every few years so they can completely shed any baggage from their last position and get a much fatter paycheck. (industry variations notwithstanding) This isn't to say that I think that people are being sinister. It's just behavior that the system incentivizes.
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  >Some people also believe that their work speak for themselves and they shouldn't have to explicit ask for a raise. I used to think that too but at the end of the day if you don't ask you don't get. Doesn't matter how you wish things were.
  - hamburglar 5y ago
    For what it’s worth, I have literally never asked for a raise in 30 years and have had my pay double in the span of two years at multiple companies. I am an individual contributor making an embarrassingly good total comp. Maybe the key is that deep down, I keep trying to provide value commensurate with what they pay me, and I never feel like I get there.
    - benfrancom 5y ago
      Perhaps if you negotiated, you could have gotten substantially more?
      - hamburglar 5y ago
        Substantially more guilt- based productivity maybe. I think I’ll be fine.
circlefavshape 5y ago
+1 First step: ask for a raise, even a substantial one. You mightn't get it, but you might, and it's a lot less hassle than changing jobs
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Don't you generally need to get an offer to have leverage/know your market worth? The hassle is mostly prepping for the interviews. If I can't cut out that step, I am basically being saved the effort of cleaning up my desk and going to a new one.
  - kevinmchugh 5y ago
    Talk to your friends and coworkers about salaries. No one needs to reveal where they're at, but just talk about what the market's paying for relevant employees. Also ask them if their company is hiring and has reasonable interviewing practices. Not everyone makes candidates jump through hoops.
    - pc86 5y ago
      Everyone revealing where they're at exactly (cash + bonus + stock + extra perks/PTO/whatever), while potentially a little uncomfortable in the beginning, is better for everyone long-term. I used to be against it, if only because I was typically at the top of the pay band for my role so had little to "gain" from the practice, but I've come around the last couple years. There's really very little downside, even if you're a top performer. 1. People who are legitimately being taken advantage of can more quickly realize it and either work to correct it or leave. 2. Top earners should be able to justify their outsized compensation to others, including peers. 3. Some people just legitimately don't know you can negotiate things like non-discretionary bonuses, extra PTO, etc. 4. Maybe your company pays everyone below-market, not just you, and at least knowing this will make it easier to decide if it's worth the lower pay (for QOL/WLB or whatever) or if you want to leave.
      - SaltyBackendGuy 5y ago
Aeolun 5y ago
I can get a free salary raise of 3% when staying, or 20% when leaving. To be fair, I took their matching counteroffer, but that would not have happened without me leaving in the first place.
- srvance 5y ago
  I make it clear that things aren't working as soon as I can without giving ultimatums. If that isn't enough to trigger a response, then a desperate counter-offer is doing it for the wrong reasons.
nly 5y ago
Beyond a threshold salary, where your lifestyle is already comfortable, salary is unlikely to be the primary reason you look for a new job. Even if your current employer match, it's probably better long term for you to move on with your career and garner broader experience

pc86 5y ago

You only know this if you ask for it and are denied. I can think of multiple times in my career (at least 3 or 4 over 11-12 years) where I asked for a raise without any corresponding promotion or increase in responsibility, and got it with little to no haggling. It doesn't (necessarily) mean you're underpaid currently, it's totally possible your boss recognizes your contributions, wants you to be happy, and has the budget to give you what you want or close to it.

selfhoster11 5y ago
Or you ask, and get flagged as a troublemaker. No thanks. I'd rather not risk dismissal from a stable job while planning my jump to the next thing.
- pc86 5y ago
  Asking for a raise doesn't get you "flagged as a troublemaker" unless you're really an ass about it.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    You are assuming that the management is rational at your company. That's quite a big 'if'.
    - ralgozino 5y ago
      If they flag you and management is not rational that's one big red flag to leave that place ASAP
      - qqtt 5y ago
        This is the thing that many people in this discussion are missing. There are many many many bad managers out there. Maybe this thread has all the good tech managers in the industry who would never do anything against their employees interest - but that isn't the reality facing most tech workers. In my experience - good managers tend to get promoted quickly, while average/below average line managers tend to stagnate. In this environment, it's likely most line managers aren't the greatest managers and the ones interacting directly with ICs have a lot of skills to develop in the manager role. The reality of most people is that they go to the job for a paycheck and put up with the (bad) management as a cost of that. In this environment, the most effective path towards higher pay is switching jobs, instead of risking navigating the inclinations of typically bad management.

logosmonkey 5y ago

Yeah, if I want more money I won't look for a promotion in my company because the salary increase will be something like 5%, maybe, due to the way internal promotions work in most corporations. I'll go somewhere else where I can get the same job I'm doing but negotiate a much better pay bump. Every significant pay increase I've had in my career has been by moving companies. I've never had anywhere near the same % increase with internal promotions.

SaltyBackendGuy 5y ago
> I'll go somewhere else where I can get the same job I'm doing but negotiate a much better pay bump Can confirm this works in our current employment market in the US for Software Engineers. In fact, I have less responsibilities because I don't know anything about the tech or product yet and got a 30% pay increase (granted I was close to underpaid). Obviously YMMV.
clipradiowallet 5y ago
I've had the same experience - going to do the same job for another company is how you end up with 20% or more increases in pay. I've never gotten more than 10%(and that was just once) from a current employer. What's worse, if you do get the 10% bump, their attitude shifts to thinking you owe them for it - or at least my employer's attitude did.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  This gets brought up here lots, but the whole "leave for 20% more pay" thing only is true earlier in your career. You will eventually plateau. Your next job switch will maybe be 15-20%, your next one 10-15%, etc. until you reach the inevitable compensation plateau. I'm over 20 years into my career and my last job change was for +1% or so, and I looked! No company would offer more.
  - nly 5y ago
    So then your strategy shifts, right? You start looking for more interesting, novel, less stressful or more stimulating work for the same pay.

tw600040 5y ago

// I want more money but not more responsibilities (sounds crazy, I know, Not really. wanting less money and more responsibilities is what would be crazy.

normalasnorfolk 5y ago

Ditto