6 ms·

Apple employees organizing for 'systemic change' in workplace

59 points by evo_9 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago
TFA doesn't mention, so I'm wondering if these are real grievances or just culture war. EDIT: I'm taking the downvotes as confirmation that it's culture war.
- notquitehuman 5y ago
  [removed by author because it was unproductive]
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > right-wing media Are we pretending that NYT, NPR, WashPo, etc are right-wing now?
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      Any sufficiently problematic source is indistinguishable from the right-wing.
  - zthrowaway 5y ago
    Ignorance is bliss.
  - ouEight12 5y ago
    Wow, that's a mighty big generalization you have there. Congrats.
akomtu 5y ago
Here's the main quote from the article: “For too long, Apple has evaded public scrutiny. The truth is that for many Apple workers -- a reality faced disproportionately by our Black, Indigenous, and other colleagues from minoritized racial, gender, and historically marginalized groups of people -- the culture of secrecy creates an opaque, intimidating fortress,”
encryptluks2 5y ago
Now that the veil has been lifted, you will start hearing about a lot more abuses at Apple. Unfortunately before their recent announcement about photo scanning, any mention of issues with Apple would get you quickly downvoted. How much more proof do you need that Apple is primarily a cult?
literallyaduck 5y ago
The factories with suicide nets to prevent "worker" suicide from awful conditions building Apple devices should be more than enough to shutdown Apple. Workplace issues in the US are the cherry on top of the putrid Apple sunday of human rights violations. Antitrust, spying and a litany of other wrongs should be considered before attempting change vs total liquidation.
- frigethtnt 5y ago
  Those are Asians. They might as well be white. No one cares.
- zthrowaway 5y ago
  Apple isn’t directly abusing Foxconn employees, Foxconn is. It’s a problem with the Chinese working culture and how easy it is there to abuse workers. They would have to move operations to a different country at this point. That still doesn’t excuse the juicy hypocrisy.
  - literallyaduck 5y ago
    Apple demanded the nets, meaning they were an active participant in the abuse: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357833/Apple-responds-suicides-Chinese-Foxconn-factory-hanging-nets.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357833/Apple-respo...
- stouset 5y ago
  First, the rate of suicides at these factories is less than that of the background population in China. Second, Apple is far from the only company that uses Foxconn for manufacturing. Other major customers of theirs are: * Acer * Amazon * Apple * Cisco * Dell * Google * HP * Intel * Lenovo * Microsoft * Motorola * Nintendo * Sony Do you suggest we shut down all of these companies too? Consider that Apple has publicly done more to ensure reasonable working conditions for their third-party suppliers than the rest of the companies on this list combined.
  - 5y ago
xqcgrek2 5y ago
This is what happens when you stop hiring on merit and allow too much dead weight in your organization.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  I'd say it is a natural consequence of specifically hiring people who have been trained to look for evidence of discrimination and racism everywhere, no matter how slight.
s09dfhks 5y ago
Not being cynical, I am genuinely curious. As most of these employees are based in California, which is an at-will-employment state, what is stopping Apple from terminating the ones making the noise but under the guise of poor performance (PIP) like most of the other FAANGs do?
- neartheplain 5y ago
  Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer: California labor law prevents employers from firing you for engaging in "protected activity" [0][1], which includes labor organizing and forms of political speech. They can still fire you for a long list of other reasons, though. [0] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Glossary.asp?Button1=P https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Glossary.asp?Button1=P [1] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-retaliation/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-reta...
  - s09dfhks 5y ago
    I understand that part, you cannot terminate someone for organizing. There have been posts here about Amazon and Google using a PIP as a "legal" means to terminate someone, so I'm curious if a large portion of "loud" individuals at Apple are suddenly going to have productivity issues all at the same time
neartheplain 5y ago
I wonder how many Apple employees with real greivances about long hours, illegal labor practices, harassment, etc. will keep quiet given this website's thorough use of culture war vocabulary. I've experienced bad working conditions at big tech companies (Amazon mainly), but would never lend strength to a movement that so clearly exists as a vehicle for identity politics. I'm also a little (not a lot) surprised at the lack of clear examples. The language is 100% vague accusations of abuse and mistreatment. Did the people who created this website experience any of it firsthand? Why can't they be more specific? Why didn't they gather more concrete examples before going public?
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  Oh the old “I would vote left, but this minorities shit is driving me away”, and “this discrimination is all made up”.
foxhop 5y ago
I'm pro workers movements but not those hijacked by Critical Race Theory most acurately defined by this video (https://youtu.be/2rDu_VUpoJ8 https://youtu.be/2rDu_VUpoJ8) CRT philosophy appears to ignore the following virtues of Truth, Love, and Freedom. These pillars are needed for a fair, just, and functioning voluntary and thriving society.
lettergram 5y ago
Please don’t let critical race theory in. I’m so dissatisfied that I have to spend so much of my time discussing identity politics, as opposed to... you know building cool stuff
gorwell 5y ago
"The truth is that for many Apple workers -- a reality faced disproportionately by our Black, Indigenous, and other colleagues from minoritized racial, gender, and historically marginalized groups of people" Chances are these Apple employees are mostly middle-upper class trust fund whites who went to expensive colleges, often exclusive ivy leagues. They use emotionally charged language and minorities as a shield against criticism. Saying that you're doing something on behalf of the marginalized is highly effective at disarming people. "we are faced with a pattern of isolation, degradation, and gaslighting." This is also a disarming tactic. In reality they are gaslighting us. "When our stories are collected and presented together, they help expose persistent patterns of racism, sexism, inequity, discrimination, intimidation, suppression, coercion, abuse, unfair punishment, and unchecked privilege." A bog standard laundry list of critical social justice language. That "unchecked privilege" makes the list of grievances betrays any possible seriousness. "aren't all given equal rights." Which rights are they missing exactly?
- mpalmer 5y ago
  > They use emotionally charged language and minorities as a shield against criticism. Not only against criticism, but against actual understanding. See: the usage of recently coined, or at least re-popularized words ("minoritized", "gaslighting") that are weighty with implication, and light on concrete claims or accusations. > Which rights are they missing exactly? Forcing this explanation would move the debate into an area they worry they can't win, so they couch their complaints in -isms and -ations, and go no further. Like most people, I know that racism, sexism and inequality exist. But they are not magic words that absolve you of actually making an argument. It's infuriating, to be frank. The issues are too important not to have a serious, sober debate about how to address them. We just can't seem to get there.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    > racism, sexism and inequality exist At the very least, the burden of proof must be on the accuser to point out where and how they are taking place.
ChrisArchitect 5y ago
The organizing site, from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28280134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28280134
the_third_wave 5y ago
The well-known parable of the hare and the scorpion - or the man/woman and the snake or the same thing in any of its guises - comes to mind here: Apple thought it could appease the mob by playing the DIE [1] game, flying a few rainbow flags and saying some words in the required lingo. The mob handily made use of Apple's eagerness to seem hip to the new thing by launching an inside attack on... Apple, the company which hired them to stave off just those attacks. This is neither unexpected nor undeserved, in fact I'd go so far as saying that any company which tries to appease the mob deserves to get burnt by it. The lesson to be learned here is not that these companies are rife with all those oppressive things they are being accused of by the mob, nor that the companies necessarily deserve to be burnt. It is that they should not ever think they can get away from the mob by giving in to its demands. Just like those who live by the sword run the risk of dying by it, those who invite the mob often end up succumbing to it. [1] Diversity, Inclusion, Equity
GoodJokes 5y ago
They should unionize, otherwise this is just PR for their virtue.

59 points by evo_9 5y ago

TFA doesn't mention, so I'm wondering if these are real grievances or just culture war. EDIT: I'm taking the downvotes as confirmation that it's culture war.

notquitehuman 5y ago
[removed by author because it was unproductive]
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > right-wing media Are we pretending that NYT, NPR, WashPo, etc are right-wing now?
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    Any sufficiently problematic source is indistinguishable from the right-wing.
- zthrowaway 5y ago
  Ignorance is bliss.
- ouEight12 5y ago
  Wow, that's a mighty big generalization you have there. Congrats.

akomtu 5y ago

Here's the main quote from the article: “For too long, Apple has evaded public scrutiny. The truth is that for many Apple workers -- a reality faced disproportionately by our Black, Indigenous, and other colleagues from minoritized racial, gender, and historically marginalized groups of people -- the culture of secrecy creates an opaque, intimidating fortress,”

encryptluks2 5y ago

Now that the veil has been lifted, you will start hearing about a lot more abuses at Apple. Unfortunately before their recent announcement about photo scanning, any mention of issues with Apple would get you quickly downvoted. How much more proof do you need that Apple is primarily a cult?

literallyaduck 5y ago

The factories with suicide nets to prevent "worker" suicide from awful conditions building Apple devices should be more than enough to shutdown Apple. Workplace issues in the US are the cherry on top of the putrid Apple sunday of human rights violations. Antitrust, spying and a litany of other wrongs should be considered before attempting change vs total liquidation.

frigethtnt 5y ago
Those are Asians. They might as well be white. No one cares.
zthrowaway 5y ago
Apple isn’t directly abusing Foxconn employees, Foxconn is. It’s a problem with the Chinese working culture and how easy it is there to abuse workers. They would have to move operations to a different country at this point. That still doesn’t excuse the juicy hypocrisy.
- literallyaduck 5y ago
  Apple demanded the nets, meaning they were an active participant in the abuse: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357833/Apple-responds-suicides-Chinese-Foxconn-factory-hanging-nets.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357833/Apple-respo...
stouset 5y ago
First, the rate of suicides at these factories is less than that of the background population in China. Second, Apple is far from the only company that uses Foxconn for manufacturing. Other major customers of theirs are: * Acer * Amazon * Apple * Cisco * Dell * Google * HP * Intel * Lenovo * Microsoft * Motorola * Nintendo * Sony Do you suggest we shut down all of these companies too? Consider that Apple has publicly done more to ensure reasonable working conditions for their third-party suppliers than the rest of the companies on this list combined.
- 5y ago

xqcgrek2 5y ago

This is what happens when you stop hiring on merit and allow too much dead weight in your organization.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
I'd say it is a natural consequence of specifically hiring people who have been trained to look for evidence of discrimination and racism everywhere, no matter how slight.

s09dfhks 5y ago

Not being cynical, I am genuinely curious. As most of these employees are based in California, which is an at-will-employment state, what is stopping Apple from terminating the ones making the noise but under the guise of poor performance (PIP) like most of the other FAANGs do?

neartheplain 5y ago
Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer: California labor law prevents employers from firing you for engaging in "protected activity" [0][1], which includes labor organizing and forms of political speech. They can still fire you for a long list of other reasons, though. [0] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Glossary.asp?Button1=P https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Glossary.asp?Button1=P [1] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-retaliation/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-reta...
- s09dfhks 5y ago
  I understand that part, you cannot terminate someone for organizing. There have been posts here about Amazon and Google using a PIP as a "legal" means to terminate someone, so I'm curious if a large portion of "loud" individuals at Apple are suddenly going to have productivity issues all at the same time

neartheplain 5y ago

I wonder how many Apple employees with real greivances about long hours, illegal labor practices, harassment, etc. will keep quiet given this website's thorough use of culture war vocabulary. I've experienced bad working conditions at big tech companies (Amazon mainly), but would never lend strength to a movement that so clearly exists as a vehicle for identity politics. I'm also a little (not a lot) surprised at the lack of clear examples. The language is 100% vague accusations of abuse and mistreatment. Did the people who created this website experience any of it firsthand? Why can't they be more specific? Why didn't they gather more concrete examples before going public?

the_gipsy 5y ago
Oh the old “I would vote left, but this minorities shit is driving me away”, and “this discrimination is all made up”.

foxhop 5y ago

I'm pro workers movements but not those hijacked by Critical Race Theory most acurately defined by this video (https://youtu.be/2rDu_VUpoJ8 https://youtu.be/2rDu_VUpoJ8) CRT philosophy appears to ignore the following virtues of Truth, Love, and Freedom. These pillars are needed for a fair, just, and functioning voluntary and thriving society.

lettergram 5y ago

Please don’t let critical race theory in. I’m so dissatisfied that I have to spend so much of my time discussing identity politics, as opposed to... you know building cool stuff

gorwell 5y ago

"The truth is that for many Apple workers -- a reality faced disproportionately by our Black, Indigenous, and other colleagues from minoritized racial, gender, and historically marginalized groups of people" Chances are these Apple employees are mostly middle-upper class trust fund whites who went to expensive colleges, often exclusive ivy leagues. They use emotionally charged language and minorities as a shield against criticism. Saying that you're doing something on behalf of the marginalized is highly effective at disarming people. "we are faced with a pattern of isolation, degradation, and gaslighting." This is also a disarming tactic. In reality they are gaslighting us. "When our stories are collected and presented together, they help expose persistent patterns of racism, sexism, inequity, discrimination, intimidation, suppression, coercion, abuse, unfair punishment, and unchecked privilege." A bog standard laundry list of critical social justice language. That "unchecked privilege" makes the list of grievances betrays any possible seriousness. "aren't all given equal rights." Which rights are they missing exactly?

mpalmer 5y ago
> They use emotionally charged language and minorities as a shield against criticism. Not only against criticism, but against actual understanding. See: the usage of recently coined, or at least re-popularized words ("minoritized", "gaslighting") that are weighty with implication, and light on concrete claims or accusations. > Which rights are they missing exactly? Forcing this explanation would move the debate into an area they worry they can't win, so they couch their complaints in -isms and -ations, and go no further. Like most people, I know that racism, sexism and inequality exist. But they are not magic words that absolve you of actually making an argument. It's infuriating, to be frank. The issues are too important not to have a serious, sober debate about how to address them. We just can't seem to get there.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > racism, sexism and inequality exist At the very least, the burden of proof must be on the accuser to point out where and how they are taking place.

ChrisArchitect 5y ago

The organizing site, from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28280134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28280134

the_third_wave 5y ago

The well-known parable of the hare and the scorpion - or the man/woman and the snake or the same thing in any of its guises - comes to mind here: Apple thought it could appease the mob by playing the DIE [1] game, flying a few rainbow flags and saying some words in the required lingo. The mob handily made use of Apple's eagerness to seem hip to the new thing by launching an inside attack on... Apple, the company which hired them to stave off just those attacks. This is neither unexpected nor undeserved, in fact I'd go so far as saying that any company which tries to appease the mob deserves to get burnt by it. The lesson to be learned here is not that these companies are rife with all those oppressive things they are being accused of by the mob, nor that the companies necessarily deserve to be burnt. It is that they should not ever think they can get away from the mob by giving in to its demands. Just like those who live by the sword run the risk of dying by it, those who invite the mob often end up succumbing to it. [1] Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

GoodJokes 5y ago

They should unionize, otherwise this is just PR for their virtue.