7 ms·

I understand anti-EU sentiment, but who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? I understand Ethereum and other sm

by qnsi 5y ago

I understand anti-EU sentiment, but who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? I understand Ethereum and other smart contract cryptocurcies, but time when people believed Bitcoin is going to become currency are long gone

ls15 5y ago
> who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? A couple of months ago, a combination of Covid-related travel restrictions and new EU KYC regulation lead me into a situation where the only way to renew my VPN in a timely manner was through crypto. I was really lucky to have some.
frankbreetz 5y ago
El Salvador is trying to use it a currency. Well, I still wouldn't consider it a currency since pretty much everything will be priced in dollars, but they are using to transfer value. One of the man reasons for this was to send home remittances. Many people still believe Bitcoin could at least be used to transfer value, like a currency. AMC, Starbucks, and United Wholesale Mortgage are all looking into accepting it. Whether these come to be seems to be seen, but there is obviously a lot of people that still expect Bitcoin to be a currency, or at the very least a way to transfer value.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jacobr1 5y ago
  My understanding is that they are trying to use the Lightning Network. Though my brief googling of this only shows speculation that this is the case, rather than confirmation.
  - pcthrowaway 5y ago
    Lightning Network is an abomination. The company behind it, Blockstream, actively suppressed the movement to increase the block size, which led to the bitcoin cash fork.
  - lottin 5y ago
    Yes, Bitcoin promoters are fully aware that the Bitcoin blockchain is unsuitable for any practical purpose, so they started working on a replacement, the so-called Lightning Network, but it turns the LN is even less likely to work than the Bitcoin blockchain. See this video for some if its fatal design flaws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZaLbUUZUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZaLbUUZUs
- mech422 5y ago
  Bitcoin is generally considered a 'store of value' rather then a day to day 'currency'... Sorta like a savings bond vs a credit card And a few years back, before the transaction fees got so high - there were a few places that took it. NewEgg comes to mind.
  - acdha 5y ago
    More accurately, after years of failing to be viable as a currency the salespeople started claiming the goal had never been replacing cash and instead was some sort of poorly defined “store of value” instead of what they’d spent the previous decade spinning stories about. Since a real reserve currency is stable and backed by consistent demand, it’s unclear why anyone expects a pure fiat currency backed only by a small community of speculators to be successful.
    - dale_glass 5y ago
      Well, not really. BTC was sort of usable as a currency to a point. You could even buy games on Steam with it. But it had a 1MB block size limit, which was initially implemented to prevent spam. This was obstinately kept in place, and that quickly destroyed its usefulness as a currency -- since now there's a lot of contention, transacting is slow and expensive. This doesn't bother the people who want an asset to buy once, but makes it useless as a currency.
      - acdha 5y ago
        It was technically possible but nobody seriously did it because the transactions were very slow and fees were massive compared to everything else, not to mention that the deflationary design meant that anyone who did would be mocked for not having held on until the value went up. Remember all of those comments about people buying a pizza with what a few years later would have been thousands of dollars? That sealed its fate as a currency because anyone who has an alternative will be better off using it as long as speculators are pouring money in.
        5y ago
unemphysbro 5y ago
I've used eth twice for motorcycle purchases from private sellers. Perhaps it's useful in for medium-large purchases.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Does it have a particular advantage over something like Venmo or Zelle? At least in the US?
  - reidjs 5y ago
    I think Venmo has a limit on how much you can transfer in a day
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      That is a good point. It looks like they have a $4999.99 limit in any seven day period [0]. That is also the single-transaction limit (though there are some variations if you are doing transactions with a merchant and not another private individual). Zelle has higher limits (over seven days, at least), but more of them. $3500 in a day, $10000 in a seven day period, or $20000 in a 30 day period [1]. So for certain high-dollar cash-equivalent transactions, these might not be the best choice. Though personally I think I'd probably end up using something more formal if I were transferring that kind of cash in a single private party transaction. [0] https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221010968 https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221010968 [1] https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-limits/ https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-...
    - unemphysbro 5y ago
      That was the reason, both cases the bikes were $7&9k and I had some surplus crypto :). Both sellers were happy accepting crypto. Otherwise, I stick to the traditional cash-in-hand.
kobalsky 5y ago
> but who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? A lot of people. You just have to NOT live in a country that uses a currency that could be considered a global reserve to find us.
- burnished 5y ago
  could you elaborate? I'm ignorant. From my perspective it seems like the value of bitcoin changes too much, having risen sharply in value recently, to spend as currency, but I'm also assuming that there are other more stable options. What kind of things do you buy, and how often? What sort of things do you do considering that the value might sky-rocket or dive overnight?
  - xtracto 5y ago
    > I'm ignorant. From my perspective it seems like the value of bitcoin changes too much, The value of Bitcoin fluctuates UP and DOWN too much *when compared to the US Dollar*. But compared say, to the Mexican Peso or say (more extremely) Venezuelan Peso, it has gone steadily up. So for us who don't live in a place with a sufficiently stable central bank and a trustful government, Cryptocurrencies are one avenue to safeguard the value of our income.
    - lionhead 5y ago
      If what you are saying is true, then there is a huge arbitrage opportunity there, unless there are sufficient transaction costs or legal deterrents involved. If the value of bitcoin relative to MXN is steadily going up (meaning that MXN is losing value relative to USD), then it automatically mean that the value of MXN is also steadily losing value relative to USD. So at the end, from a "value" point of view, nothing will change for you because both currencies are "pegged" to USD. If parity doesn't hold, there is an arbitrage opportunity there; suppose 1 USD = 2 BTC 1 USD = 4 MXN The implied exchange rate MXNUSD would be BTC = 2 MXN. But imagine as you say that for some reason, this doesn't hold, and actually 1 BTC = 5 MXN in Mexico. I have then an incentive to buy 1 BTC at 0.5 USD, use that 1 BTC to buy 5 MXN, and sell all that MXN at the original rate of 0.25 USD, earning 1.25 USD. I can understand that it may be easier to physically hold BTC as opposed to fiat USD in that situation, but I don't get the value store proposition. Anyone saying that they see Bitcoin as a store value, are implying they believe that in the future, some people will want to pay for 1 Bitcoin the same amount (or higher than) it's currently worth. It's a perfectly valid claim to make, but what is this belief based on?
SamPatt 5y ago
When governments stop taking monetary policy seriously and inflation starts to meaningfully destroy savings, you can understand why alternatives gain some traction.
- sleavey 5y ago
  This is the correct answer. Bitcoin is the hardest money ever invented, at least while SHA256 stays secure. History has shown us that people move their savings from softer to harder stores of value as they become available, eventually making softer forms worthless as a currency (seashells, stones, silver, etc.). Currently we see gold as the hardest form of money but Bitcoin has zero supply elasticity which ensures an increasing stock to flow ratio over time, making it harder. Bitcoin is also in most, arguably all, respects better than gold as a store of value, and will, if it isn't replaced by something better or if a flaw isn't discovered that destroys its advantages over gold, make gold worthless as a store of value in the long run.
imtringued 5y ago
Bitcoin miners use Bitcoin to pay their bills.
dannyobrien 5y ago
a couple of stories from Palestine and Cuba (I'd say both of these classes fall mostly under the category of where remittances and other cashflows deliberately exclude some communities) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/can-bitcoin-bring-palestine-freedom https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/can-bitcoin-bring-palest... https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/cubas-bitcoin-revolution https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/cubas-bitcoin-revolution
wesleywt 5y ago
If you are in the HN news bubble then you will not have a rounded view on the use of crypto. It has bad and good aspects.

by qnsi 5y ago

ls15 5y ago

> who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? A couple of months ago, a combination of Covid-related travel restrictions and new EU KYC regulation lead me into a situation where the only way to renew my VPN in a timely manner was through crypto. I was really lucky to have some.

frankbreetz 5y ago

El Salvador is trying to use it a currency. Well, I still wouldn't consider it a currency since pretty much everything will be priced in dollars, but they are using to transfer value. One of the man reasons for this was to send home remittances. Many people still believe Bitcoin could at least be used to transfer value, like a currency. AMC, Starbucks, and United Wholesale Mortgage are all looking into accepting it. Whether these come to be seems to be seen, but there is obviously a lot of people that still expect Bitcoin to be a currency, or at the very least a way to transfer value.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jacobr1 5y ago
My understanding is that they are trying to use the Lightning Network. Though my brief googling of this only shows speculation that this is the case, rather than confirmation.
- pcthrowaway 5y ago
  Lightning Network is an abomination. The company behind it, Blockstream, actively suppressed the movement to increase the block size, which led to the bitcoin cash fork.
- lottin 5y ago
  Yes, Bitcoin promoters are fully aware that the Bitcoin blockchain is unsuitable for any practical purpose, so they started working on a replacement, the so-called Lightning Network, but it turns the LN is even less likely to work than the Bitcoin blockchain. See this video for some if its fatal design flaws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZaLbUUZUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZaLbUUZUs
mech422 5y ago
Bitcoin is generally considered a 'store of value' rather then a day to day 'currency'... Sorta like a savings bond vs a credit card And a few years back, before the transaction fees got so high - there were a few places that took it. NewEgg comes to mind.
- acdha 5y ago
  More accurately, after years of failing to be viable as a currency the salespeople started claiming the goal had never been replacing cash and instead was some sort of poorly defined “store of value” instead of what they’d spent the previous decade spinning stories about. Since a real reserve currency is stable and backed by consistent demand, it’s unclear why anyone expects a pure fiat currency backed only by a small community of speculators to be successful.
  - dale_glass 5y ago
    Well, not really. BTC was sort of usable as a currency to a point. You could even buy games on Steam with it. But it had a 1MB block size limit, which was initially implemented to prevent spam. This was obstinately kept in place, and that quickly destroyed its usefulness as a currency -- since now there's a lot of contention, transacting is slow and expensive. This doesn't bother the people who want an asset to buy once, but makes it useless as a currency.
    - acdha 5y ago
      It was technically possible but nobody seriously did it because the transactions were very slow and fees were massive compared to everything else, not to mention that the deflationary design meant that anyone who did would be mocked for not having held on until the value went up. Remember all of those comments about people buying a pizza with what a few years later would have been thousands of dollars? That sealed its fate as a currency because anyone who has an alternative will be better off using it as long as speculators are pouring money in.
      - 5y ago

unemphysbro 5y ago

I've used eth twice for motorcycle purchases from private sellers. Perhaps it's useful in for medium-large purchases.

rootusrootus 5y ago
Does it have a particular advantage over something like Venmo or Zelle? At least in the US?
- reidjs 5y ago
  I think Venmo has a limit on how much you can transfer in a day
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    That is a good point. It looks like they have a $4999.99 limit in any seven day period [0]. That is also the single-transaction limit (though there are some variations if you are doing transactions with a merchant and not another private individual). Zelle has higher limits (over seven days, at least), but more of them. $3500 in a day, $10000 in a seven day period, or $20000 in a 30 day period [1]. So for certain high-dollar cash-equivalent transactions, these might not be the best choice. Though personally I think I'd probably end up using something more formal if I were transferring that kind of cash in a single private party transaction. [0] https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221010968 https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221010968 [1] https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-limits/ https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-...
  - unemphysbro 5y ago
    That was the reason, both cases the bikes were $7&9k and I had some surplus crypto :). Both sellers were happy accepting crypto. Otherwise, I stick to the traditional cash-in-hand.

kobalsky 5y ago

> but who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? A lot of people. You just have to NOT live in a country that uses a currency that could be considered a global reserve to find us.

burnished 5y ago
could you elaborate? I'm ignorant. From my perspective it seems like the value of bitcoin changes too much, having risen sharply in value recently, to spend as currency, but I'm also assuming that there are other more stable options. What kind of things do you buy, and how often? What sort of things do you do considering that the value might sky-rocket or dive overnight?
- xtracto 5y ago
  > I'm ignorant. From my perspective it seems like the value of bitcoin changes too much, The value of Bitcoin fluctuates UP and DOWN too much *when compared to the US Dollar*. But compared say, to the Mexican Peso or say (more extremely) Venezuelan Peso, it has gone steadily up. So for us who don't live in a place with a sufficiently stable central bank and a trustful government, Cryptocurrencies are one avenue to safeguard the value of our income.
  - lionhead 5y ago
    If what you are saying is true, then there is a huge arbitrage opportunity there, unless there are sufficient transaction costs or legal deterrents involved. If the value of bitcoin relative to MXN is steadily going up (meaning that MXN is losing value relative to USD), then it automatically mean that the value of MXN is also steadily losing value relative to USD. So at the end, from a "value" point of view, nothing will change for you because both currencies are "pegged" to USD. If parity doesn't hold, there is an arbitrage opportunity there; suppose 1 USD = 2 BTC 1 USD = 4 MXN The implied exchange rate MXNUSD would be BTC = 2 MXN. But imagine as you say that for some reason, this doesn't hold, and actually 1 BTC = 5 MXN in Mexico. I have then an incentive to buy 1 BTC at 0.5 USD, use that 1 BTC to buy 5 MXN, and sell all that MXN at the original rate of 0.25 USD, earning 1.25 USD. I can understand that it may be easier to physically hold BTC as opposed to fiat USD in that situation, but I don't get the value store proposition. Anyone saying that they see Bitcoin as a store value, are implying they believe that in the future, some people will want to pay for 1 Bitcoin the same amount (or higher than) it's currently worth. It's a perfectly valid claim to make, but what is this belief based on?

SamPatt 5y ago

When governments stop taking monetary policy seriously and inflation starts to meaningfully destroy savings, you can understand why alternatives gain some traction.

sleavey 5y ago
This is the correct answer. Bitcoin is the hardest money ever invented, at least while SHA256 stays secure. History has shown us that people move their savings from softer to harder stores of value as they become available, eventually making softer forms worthless as a currency (seashells, stones, silver, etc.). Currently we see gold as the hardest form of money but Bitcoin has zero supply elasticity which ensures an increasing stock to flow ratio over time, making it harder. Bitcoin is also in most, arguably all, respects better than gold as a store of value, and will, if it isn't replaced by something better or if a flaw isn't discovered that destroys its advantages over gold, make gold worthless as a store of value in the long run.

imtringued 5y ago

Bitcoin miners use Bitcoin to pay their bills.

dannyobrien 5y ago

a couple of stories from Palestine and Cuba (I'd say both of these classes fall mostly under the category of where remittances and other cashflows deliberately exclude some communities) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/can-bitcoin-bring-palestine-freedom https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/can-bitcoin-bring-palest... https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/cubas-bitcoin-revolution https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/cubas-bitcoin-revolution

wesleywt 5y ago

If you are in the HN news bubble then you will not have a rounded view on the use of crypto. It has bad and good aspects.