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You frame it as a conscious choice, but in my experience more than 9 of 10 Apple users are completely ignorant of the issues. They only "know what they like" or

You frame it as a conscious choice, but in my experience more than 9 of 10 Apple users are completely ignorant of the issues. They only "know what they like" or think "Apple is best. " There's no consideration at all of reasons or consequences.

deleted 5y ago
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zapzupnz 5y ago
I'd be willing to be those 9 out of 10 users barely know how to use a desktop computer beyond "click on the button for the internet". I suppose that's the difference: the price they pay in user control and freedom is swapped for experiences and abilities to which they would never otherwise be exposed. I prefer not to frame those people as ignorant in a negative way. It is we who set them up with those devices and taught them how to use them, we were just as ignorant.
- nraynaud 5y ago
  I tend to agree, it's about how you manage your focus and memory in a world of distractions.
simonh 5y ago
There absolutely is consideration of the reasons or consequences relevant to them, that they care about. The fact is the things you think they should care about, they just flat out don't, and that's fine.
- Cederfjard 5y ago
  I tend to agree with you, but it’s also definitely possible that segments of the population are unaware of issues they would care about if they were.
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    This, exactly. When I have conversations with non techy friends and introduce them to my take on the privacy and consumer rights issues, and they take the time to look into the problems and think about it, they've almost always come back and said the costs in loss of rights, market diversity, ecological impacts, or simply in dollars, are not worth the value provided by huge companies like Apple and Google. They both ruthlessly squash competition and innovation that threaten their bottom lines, but somehow project wholesome images as innovation engines and friends of consumers. They both ruthlessly exploit employees and partners, while somehow appearing to be wholesome and desirous places of employment. They're both soulless megacorps with institutional algorithms that prevent any threat to the control over a domain of profit. When such institutions arise, outside the control of any human or group of humans in the loop, they should be forcibly broken up. That level of power and influence belongs in the hands of people, not inhuman constructs.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Certainly, the vast majority of people in rich countries can afford to care more about fashion (including bubble color) than functionality, and this is reflected in their smartphone purchases. The frustration you see in these comments comes from technologists like the OP thinking the same way and repeatedly running into leopard ate my face moments.
  - handrous 5y ago
    > Certainly, the vast majority of people in rich countries can afford to care more about fashion (including bubble color) than functionality, I've been an iOS and Android developer—as in, paid to do it. Was an Android phone user before doing any mobile dev. Finally got my hands on IIRC a 3rd-generation Surface at work a few years back, as a test device. Having extensive experience with the competition, I now choose Apple phones and tablets for a few reasons, functionality very much among them.
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      I don't doubt your experience, but I would expect you to be an outlier and that more technologists would prefer a device they can program with the same APIs as the manufacturer without any gatekeeping and non-buggy web access most of all. Having better photo sharing and phone call capabilities, less device restarts, notification filtering, the ability to caption audio for times when having the speaker on is inconvenient or not loud enough, and supporting restricted guest accounts are also features that most people who don't worry as much about fashion would not want to give up.
      - handrous 5y ago
        > I would expect you to be an outlier and that more technologists would prefer a device they can program with the same APIs as the manufacturer without any gatekeeping and non-buggy web access most of all. I doubt most "technologists" care about writing code for their phone to begin with, and I don't know what you mean by "non-buggy web access". That doesn't mean I think most "technologists" would pick Apple (I really don't know) but I don't think I'm the outlier here, preferences-wise, even if I am on which platform I choose. > Having better photo sharing and phone call capabilities, less device restarts Photo sharing's never been a problem—what am I missing? I don't talk on the phone much so maybe that's actually terrible (it seems entirely fine?) and I just don't know it. Device restarts? How often do you think I restart my iOS devices? > the ability to caption audio for times when having the speaker on is inconvenient or not loud enough That is cool. Not something I'd use personally, but it's cool. > supporting restricted guest accounts are also features that Account management is my biggest complaint about I-devices. Mostly the iPad—I don't really care if iPhones continue to have only two modes (full, and PIN-restricted "screen time" mode—which I don't use anyway, so I wouldn't mind if that disappeared, really) but true multi-account would be great on the iPad. > most people who don't worry as much about fashion would not want to give up. Hahahaha.
rootusrootus 5y ago
The same can be said for Android users. Are you really taking the snobby attitude that 'real' technical people would hack together their phone from parts and open source software?

deleted 5y ago

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zapzupnz 5y ago

I'd be willing to be those 9 out of 10 users barely know how to use a desktop computer beyond "click on the button for the internet". I suppose that's the difference: the price they pay in user control and freedom is swapped for experiences and abilities to which they would never otherwise be exposed. I prefer not to frame those people as ignorant in a negative way. It is we who set them up with those devices and taught them how to use them, we were just as ignorant.

nraynaud 5y ago
I tend to agree, it's about how you manage your focus and memory in a world of distractions.

simonh 5y ago

There absolutely is consideration of the reasons or consequences relevant to them, that they care about. The fact is the things you think they should care about, they just flat out don't, and that's fine.

Cederfjard 5y ago
I tend to agree with you, but it’s also definitely possible that segments of the population are unaware of issues they would care about if they were.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  This, exactly. When I have conversations with non techy friends and introduce them to my take on the privacy and consumer rights issues, and they take the time to look into the problems and think about it, they've almost always come back and said the costs in loss of rights, market diversity, ecological impacts, or simply in dollars, are not worth the value provided by huge companies like Apple and Google. They both ruthlessly squash competition and innovation that threaten their bottom lines, but somehow project wholesome images as innovation engines and friends of consumers. They both ruthlessly exploit employees and partners, while somehow appearing to be wholesome and desirous places of employment. They're both soulless megacorps with institutional algorithms that prevent any threat to the control over a domain of profit. When such institutions arise, outside the control of any human or group of humans in the loop, they should be forcibly broken up. That level of power and influence belongs in the hands of people, not inhuman constructs.
lern_too_spel 5y ago
Certainly, the vast majority of people in rich countries can afford to care more about fashion (including bubble color) than functionality, and this is reflected in their smartphone purchases. The frustration you see in these comments comes from technologists like the OP thinking the same way and repeatedly running into leopard ate my face moments.
- handrous 5y ago
  > Certainly, the vast majority of people in rich countries can afford to care more about fashion (including bubble color) than functionality, I've been an iOS and Android developer—as in, paid to do it. Was an Android phone user before doing any mobile dev. Finally got my hands on IIRC a 3rd-generation Surface at work a few years back, as a test device. Having extensive experience with the competition, I now choose Apple phones and tablets for a few reasons, functionality very much among them.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    I don't doubt your experience, but I would expect you to be an outlier and that more technologists would prefer a device they can program with the same APIs as the manufacturer without any gatekeeping and non-buggy web access most of all. Having better photo sharing and phone call capabilities, less device restarts, notification filtering, the ability to caption audio for times when having the speaker on is inconvenient or not loud enough, and supporting restricted guest accounts are also features that most people who don't worry as much about fashion would not want to give up.
    - handrous 5y ago
      > I would expect you to be an outlier and that more technologists would prefer a device they can program with the same APIs as the manufacturer without any gatekeeping and non-buggy web access most of all. I doubt most "technologists" care about writing code for their phone to begin with, and I don't know what you mean by "non-buggy web access". That doesn't mean I think most "technologists" would pick Apple (I really don't know) but I don't think I'm the outlier here, preferences-wise, even if I am on which platform I choose. > Having better photo sharing and phone call capabilities, less device restarts Photo sharing's never been a problem—what am I missing? I don't talk on the phone much so maybe that's actually terrible (it seems entirely fine?) and I just don't know it. Device restarts? How often do you think I restart my iOS devices? > the ability to caption audio for times when having the speaker on is inconvenient or not loud enough That is cool. Not something I'd use personally, but it's cool. > supporting restricted guest accounts are also features that Account management is my biggest complaint about I-devices. Mostly the iPad—I don't really care if iPhones continue to have only two modes (full, and PIN-restricted "screen time" mode—which I don't use anyway, so I wouldn't mind if that disappeared, really) but true multi-account would be great on the iPad. > most people who don't worry as much about fashion would not want to give up. Hahahaha.

rootusrootus 5y ago

The same can be said for Android users. Are you really taking the snobby attitude that 'real' technical people would hack together their phone from parts and open source software?