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This makes it sound like there was some groundbreaking CDC study that got hidden for political reasons. It was a study of a single month in Georgia before Delt

by AdamN 5y ago

This makes it sound like there was some groundbreaking CDC study that got hidden for political reasons. It was a study of a single month in Georgia before Delta. Aside from the narrowness of the inputs I highly doubt school policy and ground truth were aligned. That study is not enough to be driving policy.

rhino369 5y ago
The evidence for cotton and surgical mask--as used in actual practice--being effective at reducing the spread is pretty weak in general. Most I've seen cited by mask proponents either don't use control groups (and thus can't really distinguish btwn other factors that correlate with mask wearing) or are laboratory tests just testing what % of particles are blocked by masks--which ignores almost every relevant question about mask mandates and relies on suspect theoretical models about how covid actually transmits between people. I'm mystified why people on both sides are so up in arms about masks, but nobody gives one shit about uncontroversal and more effective mitigation techniques like air filtration and circulation. An infected kid in classroom without proper air circulation could fill the classroom with enough virus to cause a super spreader event--mask or no-cotton/surgical mask.
- triceratops 5y ago
  > nobody gives one shit about uncontroversal and more effective mitigation techniques like air filtration and circulation. How much would it cost to retrofit a bunch of schools with this stuff? Ideally you'd do both. Have better air circulation, and institute masks when the regional caseload goes above a certain threshold.
  - rhino369 5y ago
    I don't know, but it should pay dividends for generations given it'll probably slow down colds and flus too. Even things like a box fan in a window are probably significantly more effective than scooby doo masks.
    - triceratops 5y ago
      > box fan in a window That's fine year-round in the south and southwest. Not so much in the rest of the country though.
    - edmundsauto 5y ago
      Why should one preclude the other? Defense in depth and all that.
  - AdamN 5y ago
    Billions in the US and it's part of the infrastructure bill and alot of investment right now. This is a multi-year effort (although IMHO functioning windows should be more normalized instead of going all in on HVAC).
- johnold 5y ago
  I know that our teacher's union and the district we work for negotiated for almost a week about air filtration and circulation. The HVAC is continuously circulating air from the time it is on until after school when it turns off. There is some time before school and maybe 20min after school when it is on. They have settled on only pulling air from the outside instead of recycling the warm or cool air in the room. And having some kind of agreement on the merv rating of the filters. It may be merv 7(but I'm not sure.)
- guelo 5y ago
  The riled-up anti-mask parents get all the attention but in every district there are also parents pushing for more ventilation, testing, vaccinations, etc. In my school we've been able to get the ventilation upgraded with MERV-13 filters.
- shadilay 5y ago
  Some years back I had a professor who was doing research on the lack of air circulation leading to CO2 buildup in classrooms. CO2 has pretty deleterious effects of student achievement. Turns out oxygen is important for cognition, who knew? I can only assume it's worse with face masks.
  - Jansemon 5y ago
    What about all the surgeons that perform multi hour long surgeries then?
    - shadilay 5y ago
      Surgical masks are designed to stop droplets, not aerosols so they're pretty loose. The mask is not form fitting around the nose. OR's also have dedicated filtration/HVAC systems with HEPA filters. I researched this when I was looking for a filter system for wildfire smoke.
spookthesunset 5y ago
The default policy should be a normal non-masked school year. People pushing masks need to produce a hell of a lot of evidence that masks work and are worth all the negative effects they might have on kids. In addition they need a clearly defined exit strategy. They should also articulate what problem masks on kids are trying to solve.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  People claiming "all the negative effects they might have on kids" "need to produce a hell of a lot of evidence" of that.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    That isn’t how this works. It isn’t my job to provide that evidence. Y’all want to force my 4 year old to wear a mask at her preschool. Prove it is necessary and won’t cause long term development issues. It isn’t my job to prove it isn't necessary. I’m the one that needs to be convinced, not the other way around. Y’all are the ones trying to force this, not me.
    - IX-103 5y ago
      How full is your local pediatric ICU? https://www.google.com/search?q=pediatric+icu+beds https://www.google.com/search?q=pediatric+icu+beds If it's full then risking developmental issues for your child should probably be a less important to you than risking a highly contagious illness with the complications that entails (complications include death, permanent cognitive, neurological, respiratory and cardiovascular damage). Ideally every responsible* parent could choose how they want to manage the risk for their child, but that's not always practical. With limited daycare and schooling facilities, there's a strong push to follow the more ~conservative~ (cautious) approaches. And this is at it should be. As they say "Your freedom to swing your arm ends at my face", so to should your freedom to choose the level of risk you are comfortable with be limited by the freedom for others to choose their level of risk. *A responsible parent considers the welfare of the child first and foremost, not using children as tools to make points or demonstrate a commitment to a particular ideology or to otherwise serve their own interests.

by AdamN 5y ago

rhino369 5y ago

The evidence for cotton and surgical mask--as used in actual practice--being effective at reducing the spread is pretty weak in general. Most I've seen cited by mask proponents either don't use control groups (and thus can't really distinguish btwn other factors that correlate with mask wearing) or are laboratory tests just testing what % of particles are blocked by masks--which ignores almost every relevant question about mask mandates and relies on suspect theoretical models about how covid actually transmits between people. I'm mystified why people on both sides are so up in arms about masks, but nobody gives one shit about uncontroversal and more effective mitigation techniques like air filtration and circulation. An infected kid in classroom without proper air circulation could fill the classroom with enough virus to cause a super spreader event--mask or no-cotton/surgical mask.

triceratops 5y ago
> nobody gives one shit about uncontroversal and more effective mitigation techniques like air filtration and circulation. How much would it cost to retrofit a bunch of schools with this stuff? Ideally you'd do both. Have better air circulation, and institute masks when the regional caseload goes above a certain threshold.
- rhino369 5y ago
  I don't know, but it should pay dividends for generations given it'll probably slow down colds and flus too. Even things like a box fan in a window are probably significantly more effective than scooby doo masks.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    > box fan in a window That's fine year-round in the south and southwest. Not so much in the rest of the country though.
  - edmundsauto 5y ago
    Why should one preclude the other? Defense in depth and all that.
- AdamN 5y ago
  Billions in the US and it's part of the infrastructure bill and alot of investment right now. This is a multi-year effort (although IMHO functioning windows should be more normalized instead of going all in on HVAC).
johnold 5y ago
I know that our teacher's union and the district we work for negotiated for almost a week about air filtration and circulation. The HVAC is continuously circulating air from the time it is on until after school when it turns off. There is some time before school and maybe 20min after school when it is on. They have settled on only pulling air from the outside instead of recycling the warm or cool air in the room. And having some kind of agreement on the merv rating of the filters. It may be merv 7(but I'm not sure.)
guelo 5y ago
The riled-up anti-mask parents get all the attention but in every district there are also parents pushing for more ventilation, testing, vaccinations, etc. In my school we've been able to get the ventilation upgraded with MERV-13 filters.
shadilay 5y ago
Some years back I had a professor who was doing research on the lack of air circulation leading to CO2 buildup in classrooms. CO2 has pretty deleterious effects of student achievement. Turns out oxygen is important for cognition, who knew? I can only assume it's worse with face masks.
- Jansemon 5y ago
  What about all the surgeons that perform multi hour long surgeries then?
  - shadilay 5y ago
    Surgical masks are designed to stop droplets, not aerosols so they're pretty loose. The mask is not form fitting around the nose. OR's also have dedicated filtration/HVAC systems with HEPA filters. I researched this when I was looking for a filter system for wildfire smoke.

spookthesunset 5y ago

The default policy should be a normal non-masked school year. People pushing masks need to produce a hell of a lot of evidence that masks work and are worth all the negative effects they might have on kids. In addition they need a clearly defined exit strategy. They should also articulate what problem masks on kids are trying to solve.

ceejayoz 5y ago
People claiming "all the negative effects they might have on kids" "need to produce a hell of a lot of evidence" of that.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  That isn’t how this works. It isn’t my job to provide that evidence. Y’all want to force my 4 year old to wear a mask at her preschool. Prove it is necessary and won’t cause long term development issues. It isn’t my job to prove it isn't necessary. I’m the one that needs to be convinced, not the other way around. Y’all are the ones trying to force this, not me.
  - IX-103 5y ago
    How full is your local pediatric ICU? https://www.google.com/search?q=pediatric+icu+beds https://www.google.com/search?q=pediatric+icu+beds If it's full then risking developmental issues for your child should probably be a less important to you than risking a highly contagious illness with the complications that entails (complications include death, permanent cognitive, neurological, respiratory and cardiovascular damage). Ideally every responsible* parent could choose how they want to manage the risk for their child, but that's not always practical. With limited daycare and schooling facilities, there's a strong push to follow the more ~conservative~ (cautious) approaches. And this is at it should be. As they say "Your freedom to swing your arm ends at my face", so to should your freedom to choose the level of risk you are comfortable with be limited by the freedom for others to choose their level of risk. *A responsible parent considers the welfare of the child first and foremost, not using children as tools to make points or demonstrate a commitment to a particular ideology or to otherwise serve their own interests.