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I don't think that's unpopular. More precisely, once the vaccine is available to all age groups, the only people that need to be scared of it are the unvaccina
by outside1234 5y ago
I don't think that's unpopular. More precisely, once the vaccine is available to all age groups, the only people that need to be scared of it are the unvaccinated.
And they will have had every opportunity to get vaccinated, so we shouldn't optimize for them.
- greyivy 5y agoNot the immunocompromised or those who are legitimately unable to get vaccinated? Not a very nuanced take.
- mwint 5y agoWhat can we do for those people, assuming forever-lockdowns aren’t an option?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jjoonathan 5y agoPressure those who choose to go unvaccinated for misguided "personal freedom" reasons to reconsider their choices.
- SamPatt 5y agoThe article explains why a vaccination is not a long term guarantee you will not get and or spread this new flu.
- jjoonathan 5y ago"It's not a perfect solution so we might as well do nothing instead!" Come on. Getting vaccinated has more than enough utility for you and for others to make it a good choice on either principle alone.
- camjohnson26 5y agoWearing a helmet on an airplane isn’t a perfect solution to airplanes crashing but it could potentially save your life, but we seem fine with the risk trade off of not wearing one. No decisions we make about responding to COVID will be risk free, the question is which trade offs we should accept. No matter how much pressure is put on the unvaccinated some people will refuse to get it, and unless you’re suggesting administering it by force eventually that tactic will meet diminishing returns.
- shkkmo 5y agoYou picked the wrong example. Helmets will do very little to reduce fatalities from air travel simply because the mechanics of how those fatalities occure. Wearing a helmet while driving a car, however, has a pretty good chance of reduxing injuries and fatalities (probably even better than wearing a helmet when riding a bike on a seperated bike path.) I don't think this is really a question of people analyzing the trade-offs. This how to do with how the risks and the activity are percieved, people are generally really at accurately assessing such risks.
- ineedasername 5y agoThe article also explains about the significant risk reduction for getting & passing it on, so I think the point still stands.
- erhk 5y agoYes, and parachutes do not prevent airplanes from crashing. Brushing your teeth doesnt guarantee you will have no cavities. Radiation doesnt guarantee you will be cancer free. At no point did the vaccine promise full immunity.
- pc86 5y agoHow's that been working out so far? At some point life returns to normal.
- erhk 5y agoHave ICU beds ready to accommodate them and not have them filled with unneccesary cases from unvaccinated individuals that have chosen freely to be unvaccinated. But in my callousness I would simply illegalize treating people that are anti-vaccine.
- h3cate 5y agoIs any country with high vaccination numbers struggling for ICU beds at the minute?
- base698 5y agoWe should do this with people who are obese and ride motorcycles as well. Given obese take up hundreds of thousands of beds a year.
- orthoxerox 5y ago> But in my callousness I would simply illegalize treating people that are anti-vaccine. What about not treating lung cancer in smokers? Or diabetes in morbidly obese?
- h3cate 5y agoWhat would you have us do instead? The elderly are severely at risk from the flu but we don't have winter lockdowns for them?
- ineedasername 5y agoThen those people should be at least as scared of the unvaccinated as COVID itself. That will be their primary infection vector.
- h3cate 5y agoYou still spread covid whether you are vaccinated or not
- ineedasername 5y agoSure, there's just many fewer vaccinated people getting infected, so many fewer spreading it. And when they do get infected, they are infectious to others for significantly less time. Either way, you're still less of a risk to your own health and the health of other people if you get vaccinated. You seem to be trying to make a black & white argument: The vaccine isn't 100% effective, and therefore isn't necessary/people shouldn't feel obligated/it doesn't reduce risk/or something like that. But it doesn't have to be perfect in order for it to be much much much much much much much much much much better than nothing
- logicalmonster 5y ago> Either way, you're still less of a risk to your own health and the health of other people if you get vaccinated. Both potential short and long-term side effects of the vaccines put aside for a moment and how important things like fertility and reproduction cannot have been adequately tested yet, I think the comment about risking others' health is completely backwards once you think through the logic of it. If my reasoning is in any way illogical, please clarify for me how you think it is wrong. If the vaccines are reducing symptoms to the point that the vaccinated might not quickly realize that they're Covid carriers and are still going about their days, wouldn't they be more likely to encounter and put at risk more people than the unvaccinated who know that they're sick and far more likely to stay at home and isolate?
- outside1234 5y agoThere are very few people who can legitimately not get vaccinated for science reasons. The immunocompromised will have accelerated shots etc. More generally, we can't solve for the 0.5%, we have to solve for the 98%.
- rootusrootus 5y agoI agree. Once my kids can get jabbed, I will cease giving covid much thought. I don't want to get a breakthrough case, even if it's not dangerous, because I loathe being ill, but getting sick periodically is an unfortunate fact of life.
- fidesomnes 5y agothe vaccinated still spread it. side effects of the vaccine are increasing at an alarming rate. it's a bioweapon and you would be wise to challenge your assumptions.
- erhk 5y agoDepending on the age of your children you can mostly cease giving it thought already. https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/ https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19... Barring unusual preconditions
- ryantgtg 5y ago> there is an urgent need to collect more data on longer-term impacts of the pandemic on children, including ways the virus may harm the long-term physical health of infected children, as well as its emotional and mental health effects. Thanks, but I’ll still be thinking about it.
- deelowe 5y agoData for Delta is still coming in, right? I thought there are concerns about it causing more complications in children than previous variants.
- tomp 5y agoI wish this was true. Most Europe is still under various lockdown restrictions, even though in a lot of countries, there's been enough vaccine for everyone (who wanted) to get vaccinated by now.
- h3cate 5y agoThis.
- sgc 5y agoChildren under 12 are a major group that drop vaccination percentages down significantly everywhere. The hope is that once this age group can also be vaccinated, we can find the new normal and let people individually hedge their own bets.
- h3cate 5y agoWhy vaccinate children under 12? The only good reason I can see is if they have some sort of known health condition. Is there any other reasons why you would do this?
- danans 5y agoThe same reason to vaccinate everyone else: to minimize the opportunity for a more virulent strain to emerge - one against which current vaccines are ineffective.
- base698 5y agoI think you have that backwards: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/leaky-vaccines-may-create-stronger-viruses-357575%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/leaky-vaccines... Selection pressures and non sterilizing vaccines are what causes more virulent strains to emerge.
- h3cate 5y agoBut covid mutates and replicates in people whether they're vaccinated or not?
- anonymouse008 5y ago> the only people that need to be scared of it are the unvaccinated We often overlook those who were previously infected. I believe this is a common mistake that makes for inaccurate groupings, which negatively affect the common good.
- da_chicken 5y agoPrevious infection provides relatively short-lived natural immunity to COVID-19. I tested positive the last week of December 2020 (exactly three weeks before I was scheduled to get the vaccine, which I did also eventually get). When I spoke to the county health department, they said they had already seen repeat infections. They said immune protection from direct exposure only seems to last 3-6 months, which is backed up by the fact that the virus had only been in my state about 10 months at that point. Vaccine protection is much more robust.
- erhk 5y agoNo its not and this kind of speculation is incredibly harmful. Please stop using atomic anecdotes to percieve the world, or at least stop propogating them.
- kurthr 5y agoHow do you know it is not more robust? Almost certainly vaccine immunity is more robust than asymptomatic infections (especially those that rely on the innate immune response rather than adaptive immune response). Asymptomatic infections (especially in the young) are extremely common and possibly in the majority for those under 30.
- pc86 5y agoWe know it's not robust because this anecdote of N==1 directly contradicts peer-reviewed longitudinal studies.
- 5y ago
- heywherelogingo 5y agoTo think the unvaccinated should be scared of it reveals a perspective born of mania. I'm unvaccinated, had covid last week, it's preferable to a common cold. There is no way I will bother with the so-called vaccine, which is more of a mere remedy, when covid is so insignificant to people who are healthy. If you are so unhealthy that you need the vaccine (remedy) then you have bigger concerns.
- erhk 5y agoWhat is a remedy in this context? Can you put this chicken scratch in real terms or are you simply so far into pseudoscience that you've disregarded language as well? 90% of ICU cases are people that think like you in my county. Almost all new severe cases and deaths are people who believe they are above the risk. Tell me this, since you are a "healthy" individual do you also forego all cancer screening? Do you simply have such an attunement to your own body that you can feel any rogue cells as they form? Perhaps you rub yourself with quartz because you consider it to be a "good" crystal with healing properties.
- ineedasername 5y agoI guess what it comes down to is this: Do you think that if most people got vaccinated, fewer people would get seriously sick & die? If so, then your position is hard to justify. If not, then I would be interested in your explanation for that belief. had covid last week, it's preferable to a common cold Glad it worked out for you, but plenty of other healthy people are dying. Others are passing it on to people who then die. when covid is so insignificant to people who are healthy. A truly selfish perspective If you are so unhealthy that you need the vaccine (remedy) then you have bigger concerns. Sure, and plenty of people have underlying conditions through no fault of their own, and the unvaccinated are adding to their concerns significantly by gambling with their own health (which is alright, I guess) and by extension the health of everyone around them (which, again, is selfish) Also what do you mean by remedy? Definitions that I see do not match your use of the term. That word may not mean what you think it means.
- h3cate 5y agoI get what you're saying but we're seeing the virus spread through the vaccinated. Because the vaccinated aren't getting sick and ending up in hospital, they're spreading it to more people and the virus is mutating the whole way so I struggle to follow your logic.
- guscost 5y agoYep, you're gonna leave us alone from now on. Also I'll decide for myself what to fear, thanks.
- erhk 5y agoGreat so did you decide to fear a vaccine or are you happily doing your civic duty for the sake of your countrymen.
- guscost 5y agoThe latter. I'm probably not at risk from either the virus or the shot. Unfortunately you can't isolate a world-altering issue like this from its psychological and political context, so for me any respiratory-disease-related risk is secondary to the much bigger threat. "Live free or die" is not an empty slogan. I will be standing with the unvaxxed to the bitter end, although it probably won't go that far.
- Bhilai 5y agoVery curious to know, are you and your family (if you have kids) have not vaccinated for other kinds of stuff like Polio, HepA, HepB, Varicella etc. or is your objection just for Covid vaccines?
- erhk 5y agoYou misunderstand me. Being vaccinated is your civic duty. Failing to do so is unpatriotic.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y agoAlmost nobody is at risk from COVID-19. The 600k+ people who died from it so far in the US represents a tiny, tiny percentage of the population. Even after every single person has been exposed to the virus, it seems likely that the individual risk will remain extremely small. The problem with COVID-19 has never been the risk it poses for you as an individual, but the public health aspects. It is highly infectious; some number of cases require hospitalization; if too many people require that at the same time, the public health implications are substantial, much broader than COVID-19 itself, and potentially lethal. Ergo, we have a civic responsibility to take steps to reduce the chance of this happening, and the simplest way to do that is vaccination and masks.
- ajross 5y agoAlternatively: the unvaccinated are simply mistaken, and represent people's cousins and friends and children and grandparents, and their suffering and death would represent real loss and tragedy even to people who did everything right and got their shots. The desire to see this pandemic solely in terms of an individual moral play (on all sides of the debate!) is really strong on this website, and I think it's very unhelpful. We're all in this together. I got my shots. All my family members of age are vaccinated. All our friends and regular acquaintances are vaccinated. I still wear my mask where I have to be near people in public, because every little bit helps. My risk is not zero, and if I get sick so might someone else who isn't as protected. I still avoid restaurants. I still work at home. I still limit travel. We can stop this when the pandemic is controlled. Until then, it remains all of our collective responsibility. And I for one am willing to bear that.
- zarzavat 5y agoYour compassion is noble but the reality is that few share it. Very few vaccinated people are willing to accept restrictions on their liberty to help protect people who are unvaccinated by choice. Besides, the virus is not standing still. It is responding to selective pressure by becoming ever more transmissible. The more we try to control the virus by social distancing, the more the virus responds by becoming easier to transmit. We cannot control this pandemic long term via social distancing, even with perfect compliance.
- ajross 5y ago> The more we try to control the virus by social distancing, the more the virus responds by becoming easier to transmit. That is a mischaracterization. I mean, it's true, but only in a specious sense that all organisms respond to changes in their environment (including vaccination techniques!). It's absolutely not an argument that pandemic mitigation strategies are universally doomed to failure! > We cannot control this pandemic long term via social distancing Again, this is wrong. And in fact it worked to control covid (not perfectly, but well, well under what you'd expect from the early exponential curves in places like Milan and New York) for almost a year before vaccines showed up. You're making another common mistake here, and imagining that all arguments are about absolutes. In your mind, mask wearing either Works Perfectly or Must Be Abandoned. In the real world, you wear masks when the pandemic is at a high infection rate and growing, (like now) because marginal improvements are important ("every little bit helps"), and not as much when it's low and shrinking (as it was in June, when I even went to a few restaurants unmasked!).
- h3cate 5y agoWhy do you need to be scared of the unvaccinated?
- pasquinelli 5y agoi think they're saying only the unvaccinated need to be afraid.
- h3cate 5y agoOhh I see. Is that a warning or a threat? :D
- outside1234 5y agoIts a reality. If you not vaccinated, you will get COVID, and you could die or end up with Long COVID for 12 months -- and we will not feel sorry for you or shutdown.
- h3cate 5y agoYou're stating that as if it is fact when you know it is not. I don't think we should shutdown for unvaccinated and I have never said we should. I also don't think we should shutdown for those who are "at risk" but vaccinated.
- pasquinelli 5y agobeing scared doesn't actually do anything for anyone, but the vaccinated do not have zero risk. if the virus is always kicking around, then there will always be vaccinated people dying of it.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y agotens of thousands of people in the USA die every year from influenza. This does not cause most of us to be "scared" of influenza. Why not? Because (1) the individual risk is vanishing low except for a relatively small high risk demographic (2) the public health aspects (i.e. overloaded health care systems) are generally easy to control because it is not extremely infectious. (1) is and always has been true for COVID, but (2) remains unresolved at this point.
- thingification 5y agoThe risk of long COVID sticking around in immiserating form long-term once you have it is unknown, but the risk of getting long COVID (defined along the lines of at least a few COVID symptoms sticking around for a few months) is much higher than the risk of death from Flu (starting from the assumption of not yet having caught either in a given year). I hesitate to post anything here on this subject that's not carefully worked out, so all I'll say is my personal back-of-the-envelope order of magitude calculation based on public data, comparing with other per-year risks such as cancer, didn't give me any confidence at all.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago> once the vaccine is available to all age groups, the only people that need to be scared of it are the unvaccinated The age groups to whom the vaccine is not yet available have no reason to fear Covid in 2021 any more than they did influenza in 2019.
- mike00632 5y agoVaccines are available for the flu and we take them... The whole anti-vaxx mindset is bewildering. Even if COVID-19 was just like the flu we would still want to get vaccinated for it
- OJFord 5y agoVaccine efficacy isn't 100% though. People can (and are) getting infected even after (enough time has passed but not so long they'd be due a booster since) being vaccinated.
- polished85 5y agoOnce my family and I are vaccinated I assume we are protected and don't have much to worry about. Why should I care if someone else is not vaccinated? If everyone that wants the vaccine can get it, why does it matter if some people don't get it?