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I'm really amazed that there are a lot of antivaxx people here on HN. Sad to see smart people talking about "consent" when public health is in danger.

mrstumpy 5y ago
It's grossly unfair to say that someone who doesn't want a Covid vaccine is antivaxx. There are a plenty of legitimate reasons one might not get the covid vaccine.
- Qw3r7 5y ago
  Such as ?
  - mrstumpy 5y ago
    1. ~30 million confirmed (worldometer) recovered from covid. Some official estimates put that number closer to 100 million. Those individuals already have covid immunity and do not need to take a vaccine. All vaccines carry some risk, even if low. There is no reason for someone who already has covid immunity to take on the risk of a vaccine. 2. Guillain-Barre syndrome
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - iamben 5y ago
      Friend had Covid last year, wasn't too bad. Caught it again in Jan (before the chance to get vaccinated) and it hit her very hard. She's now suffering from a pretty miserable long Covid.
- martin_a 5y ago
  > There are a plenty of legitimate reasons Which? Next to medical reasons there are none. It's just selfishness and not caring about the greater good and health of society, your neighbours, colleagues, friends or family.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    If you have natural immunity, getting a vaccine seems rather pointless.
    - YPPH 5y ago
      >If you have natural immunity, getting a vaccine seems rather pointless Not according to a recent Oxford study. Quite the contrary, actually. https://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/covid-19/covid-19-infection-survey/results/new-studies https://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/covid-19/covid-19-infection-survey/... >Two doses of either vaccine still provided at least the same level of protection as having had COVID-19 before through natural infection; people who had been vaccinated after already being infected with COVID-19 had even more protection than vaccinated individuals who had not had COVID-19 before. [my emphasis added]
      - thehappypm 5y ago
        Is your quote compelling
    - mbesto 5y ago
      It's not. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html#:~:text=COVID%2D19%20vaccines%20remain%20safe,to%20those%20who%20are%20unvaccinated https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr....
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    > not caring about the greater good This is an emotional appeal that has been used to justify countless atrocities in countless civilizations. A rational society shouldn't be thinking in such blanket and qualitative ways
    - cloudwalking 5y ago
      There is no blanket logic here. This is not an atrocity. This is an instance of global pandemic, literally a 100-year natural disaster affecting all of humanity. It's not some slippery slope about your "freedom", stop trying to make it into one.
- Retric 5y ago
  Being anti vaccine seems like the definition of an antivaxx. What’s the difference in your mind? The antivaxx community is filled with people willing to take some vaccines but not others.
  - mrstumpy 5y ago
    There is a difference between being anti-vaccine, meaning that you are against all vaccines, and being hesitant to receive a specific vaccine. Most people I know who are still waiting to receive the covid vaccine are all caught up on the typical vaccines and may even get the flu shot every year.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Most people in the antivaxx community are willing to take some vaccines. Being 100% anti vaccination was never the core issue. Random article on the subject: You can essentially break anti-vaxxers into two groups, says Tim Caulfield, the Canada Research Chair in health law and policy at the University of Alberta. The first consists of full-on disbelievers who make up somewhere between two and five per cent of the population, depending on which study you look at. Their minds won’t be changed. The second group — somewhere between 20 and 30 per cent of Canadians — is for what some now call the vaccine-hesitant. They may get some of the required vaccinations for their children, but not all of them. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/who-are-the-anti-vaxxers https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/who-are-the-anti-vaxxer...
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > a difference between being anti-vaccine, meaning that you are against all vaccines, and being hesitant to receive a specific vaccine Philosophically, yes. Practically, no. If you are voluntarily unvaccinated because you’re a nutter or are lazy, you’re the same risk to the public.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Being in favor of vaccines in general, but not the ones for COVID.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> Sad to see smart people talking about "consent" when public health is in danger. It's really not difficult at all to see how "public health" taking precedence over anything can very easily lead to government overreach that is unwarranted. I get frustrated with antivaxxers not necessarily because they are against mandates, but because their arguments for not getting vaccinated are complete and utter nonsense.
kif 5y ago
For me it's not about being anti-vax. My wife had horrible abdominal pain after getting her Pfizer shot, and she still suffers from fatigue almost two weeks after. We had COVID and for her it was much easier than the vaccine. When it comes to "consent", it's the same as the whole Apple CSAM ordeal. Why talk about consent when it's for the good of children?
imjustsaying 5y ago
It's not safe, it's not effective, and it's not even a vaccine. "Darwin Award Qualifier" would be a more accurate descriptor.
system16 5y ago
I often wonder if the coronavirus were not a respiratory disease and had more visible effects like polio, would we still see such a significant antivaxx movement.
forgingahead 5y ago
There is a large continent of space, ideas, and legitimate reasons between "trust everything government/big pharma seems to have panicked agreement on" and "the government is trying to microchip me". It's important to have that clear-headed discussion, not this elite arrogance that discussion and arguing the points is somehow bad for discourse or society. People are rightfully skeptical of new pharmaceuticals based on new technology with zero long-term studies being not just approved and being sold, but also being required for basic activities in society like earning a living. There is definitely an argument to be made about not being locked down forever, and finding a way forward despite endemic COVID. But vaccine passports, and accusations that anyone with a hint of hesitation is "anti-vaxx", is a terrible way to engage and broaden the tent so all concerns are heard and addressed.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  > There is a large continent of space, ideas, and legitimate reasons between "trust everything government/big pharma seems to have panicked agreement on" and "the government is trying to microchip me". This is lip service to make it seem like vaccine hesitant individuals have a legitimate argument when they actually don’t. It’s impossible to have a clear-headed discussion when the other side’s argument pretty much comes down to gut feel at best and government conspiracy at worst. If you are (oddly) skeptical of MRNA technology, then the J&J vaccine exists and is also free. There are well over 100MM shots administered since April and the worst side effect as been a dozen blood clots in women who had a pre-existing condition that caused them. Anyone who tells you they aren’t safe is trying to sell you a bridge. If you want to argue against hard data, then you must have an actual data-backed argument or we can just assume you aren’t a serious person.
  - forgingahead 5y ago
    You don't seem like you've had much (if any) discussion with folks who are concerned about the vaccine. I would suggest not taking what you see on TV and the internet as gospel and engage with a few folks in real life. There are certainly people who you won't be able to have a discussion with, but you're not being that open-minded either by shutting down everything by declaring "they don't have a legitimate argument". *Edit: The myocarditis issue is real. Please don't handwave away legitimate concerns because of lack of understanding and compassion.
tpush 5y ago
HN has a decent amount of nut jobs (of all kinds) on it. I don't think it correlates much with intelligence.
Buttons840 5y ago
Covid has a low chance of risks. The Covid vaccine has a low chance of risks. People are bad at judging probabilities at the fringes. Yes, the chance of risks from Covid is orders of magnitude higher than the vaccine. People are still bad at it. Politics didn't help the situation.
veeti 5y ago
Sad to see smart people talking about "privacy" when children are in danger.
- flyingfences 5y ago
  Is this sarcastic, or...?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Arguments like that one are why iOS scans all of your photos now.
johnnyb9 5y ago
Actually, a recent study showed there is a "U" shaped curve where the least educated and the most highly educated are the most vaccine hesitant. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...
- c618b9b695c4 5y ago
  Granted, I am in my own little bubble, but at $WORK (pharmaceutical company where 90%+ people have a phd), there is nothing but enthusiasm for getting vaccinated. I wish there was a breakdown between disciplines - STEM vs humanities. As an aside, according to random internet site, 1.7% of Americans have a phd.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
It is unfortunate that there is no middle ground between the two. Discussion has devolved into ideological camps and all nuance has been lost. I am vaccinated, advocate others getting vaccinated, have immunocompromised family, but am uncomfortable with mandated medical treatments.
- ufmace 5y ago
  You're right. There are also edge cases that seem to get lost in the mania of one side or the other. What if you've already had Covid and recovered? The data seems a lot less certain about whether the vaccine is a clear advantage over the natural antibodies that you have from a natural recovery. What if you genuinely have allergies or other issues that might cause serious complications with receiving a vaccine? People like this definitely do exist. Those issues are both real. Alas, it's also tough to prove for certain that somebody is in one of those buckets and not making something up because they're afraid of the vaccine.
mikece 5y ago
Being opposed to mRNA gene therapy is NOT the same as being anti-vax. Likewise, being opposed to any vaccine which is developed using stem cells or tissue from aborted babies due to deeply held moral convictions doesn't make one anti-vax. A true anti-vaxxer is opposed to vaccine EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS. There are very, very few people in that fringe category.
- dangoor 5y ago
  [mRNA vaccines are distinct from gene therapy](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna-gene/fact-check-mrna-vaccines-are-distinct-from-gene-therapy-which-alters-recipients-genes-idUSL1N2PH16N https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna-gene/fa...).
- oezi 5y ago
  But mRNA technology is not a gene therapy. As an analogy: mRNA technology is NOT like sending a saboteur into a factory to change the blue prints / designs / masters records (=genes) of the factory. Rather it is like dropping a bunch work instructions (RNA snippets) over the factory and have some workers (cells) pick them up and build the things described there-in. mRNA tech isn't the same as CRISPR. The worst that could happen is that a work instruction that we inject becomes self-replicating (a virus), but because it can't replicate to begin with it there is no way that it mutates to gain such an ability.
gjsman-1000 5y ago
What happened to My Body My Choice?
baron_harkonnen 5y ago
I'm fully vaccinated, but don't think it's crazy for people to be suspicious of the vaccine. In recent years huge swath's of the united states have been suffering from another epidemic: the opioid crisis. It is well established that a major part of this epidemic was caused by many of the same major pharmaceutical companies that are now claiming to have developed a vaccine in record time. What's sad is that this legitimate concern has been whipped up by one side into a completely irrational frenzy that no longer makes coherent sense. I don't trust big pharma companies as a general rule, but I also don't believe that micro chips are being implanted (or even could be) into a vaccine. So, imho, legitimate vaccine skepticism is transformed into insane conspiracy thinking. What is also sad though is that the reaction against vaccine skepticism has been equally turned into an insane "what are you anti-science!?!" Pharmaceutical companies are complicit in the death of hundreds of thousands of individual over the last decade. Being skeptical of the claims of these companies is common sense, not anti-science. We're also seeing consist contradictions about safety and efficacy of the vaccine. There are already complex side effects and the break through rate among full vaccinated is much higher than initial claims. For me personally the vaccine still makes sense, and it certainly seems like our best path forward as far as policy efforts to end the pandemic. However the current language and public discourse on the topic is ridiculous.
a_imho 5y ago
A lot compared to what?
badwolf 5y ago
I'm neither amazed, nor surprised at the utterly insane amount of antivaxxers here in any way.
mtnpuma 5y ago
I agree. Saddened about this, considering the usual level of discussions in here.

mrstumpy 5y ago

It's grossly unfair to say that someone who doesn't want a Covid vaccine is antivaxx. There are a plenty of legitimate reasons one might not get the covid vaccine.

Qw3r7 5y ago
Such as ?
- mrstumpy 5y ago
  1. ~30 million confirmed (worldometer) recovered from covid. Some official estimates put that number closer to 100 million. Those individuals already have covid immunity and do not need to take a vaccine. All vaccines carry some risk, even if low. There is no reason for someone who already has covid immunity to take on the risk of a vaccine. 2. Guillain-Barre syndrome
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - iamben 5y ago
    Friend had Covid last year, wasn't too bad. Caught it again in Jan (before the chance to get vaccinated) and it hit her very hard. She's now suffering from a pretty miserable long Covid.
martin_a 5y ago
> There are a plenty of legitimate reasons Which? Next to medical reasons there are none. It's just selfishness and not caring about the greater good and health of society, your neighbours, colleagues, friends or family.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  If you have natural immunity, getting a vaccine seems rather pointless.
  - YPPH 5y ago
    >If you have natural immunity, getting a vaccine seems rather pointless Not according to a recent Oxford study. Quite the contrary, actually. https://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/covid-19/covid-19-infection-survey/results/new-studies https://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/covid-19/covid-19-infection-survey/... >Two doses of either vaccine still provided at least the same level of protection as having had COVID-19 before through natural infection; people who had been vaccinated after already being infected with COVID-19 had even more protection than vaccinated individuals who had not had COVID-19 before. [my emphasis added]
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      Is your quote compelling
  - mbesto 5y ago
    It's not. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html#:~:text=COVID%2D19%20vaccines%20remain%20safe,to%20those%20who%20are%20unvaccinated https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr....
- silicon2401 5y ago
  > not caring about the greater good This is an emotional appeal that has been used to justify countless atrocities in countless civilizations. A rational society shouldn't be thinking in such blanket and qualitative ways
  - cloudwalking 5y ago
    There is no blanket logic here. This is not an atrocity. This is an instance of global pandemic, literally a 100-year natural disaster affecting all of humanity. It's not some slippery slope about your "freedom", stop trying to make it into one.
Retric 5y ago
Being anti vaccine seems like the definition of an antivaxx. What’s the difference in your mind? The antivaxx community is filled with people willing to take some vaccines but not others.
- mrstumpy 5y ago
  There is a difference between being anti-vaccine, meaning that you are against all vaccines, and being hesitant to receive a specific vaccine. Most people I know who are still waiting to receive the covid vaccine are all caught up on the typical vaccines and may even get the flu shot every year.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Most people in the antivaxx community are willing to take some vaccines. Being 100% anti vaccination was never the core issue. Random article on the subject: You can essentially break anti-vaxxers into two groups, says Tim Caulfield, the Canada Research Chair in health law and policy at the University of Alberta. The first consists of full-on disbelievers who make up somewhere between two and five per cent of the population, depending on which study you look at. Their minds won’t be changed. The second group — somewhere between 20 and 30 per cent of Canadians — is for what some now call the vaccine-hesitant. They may get some of the required vaccinations for their children, but not all of them. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/who-are-the-anti-vaxxers https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/who-are-the-anti-vaxxer...
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > a difference between being anti-vaccine, meaning that you are against all vaccines, and being hesitant to receive a specific vaccine Philosophically, yes. Practically, no. If you are voluntarily unvaccinated because you’re a nutter or are lazy, you’re the same risk to the public.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Being in favor of vaccines in general, but not the ones for COVID.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

> Sad to see smart people talking about "consent" when public health is in danger. It's really not difficult at all to see how "public health" taking precedence over anything can very easily lead to government overreach that is unwarranted. I get frustrated with antivaxxers not necessarily because they are against mandates, but because their arguments for not getting vaccinated are complete and utter nonsense.

kif 5y ago

For me it's not about being anti-vax. My wife had horrible abdominal pain after getting her Pfizer shot, and she still suffers from fatigue almost two weeks after. We had COVID and for her it was much easier than the vaccine. When it comes to "consent", it's the same as the whole Apple CSAM ordeal. Why talk about consent when it's for the good of children?

imjustsaying 5y ago

It's not safe, it's not effective, and it's not even a vaccine. "Darwin Award Qualifier" would be a more accurate descriptor.

system16 5y ago

I often wonder if the coronavirus were not a respiratory disease and had more visible effects like polio, would we still see such a significant antivaxx movement.

forgingahead 5y ago

There is a large continent of space, ideas, and legitimate reasons between "trust everything government/big pharma seems to have panicked agreement on" and "the government is trying to microchip me". It's important to have that clear-headed discussion, not this elite arrogance that discussion and arguing the points is somehow bad for discourse or society. People are rightfully skeptical of new pharmaceuticals based on new technology with zero long-term studies being not just approved and being sold, but also being required for basic activities in society like earning a living. There is definitely an argument to be made about not being locked down forever, and finding a way forward despite endemic COVID. But vaccine passports, and accusations that anyone with a hint of hesitation is "anti-vaxx", is a terrible way to engage and broaden the tent so all concerns are heard and addressed.

nemothekid 5y ago
> There is a large continent of space, ideas, and legitimate reasons between "trust everything government/big pharma seems to have panicked agreement on" and "the government is trying to microchip me". This is lip service to make it seem like vaccine hesitant individuals have a legitimate argument when they actually don’t. It’s impossible to have a clear-headed discussion when the other side’s argument pretty much comes down to gut feel at best and government conspiracy at worst. If you are (oddly) skeptical of MRNA technology, then the J&J vaccine exists and is also free. There are well over 100MM shots administered since April and the worst side effect as been a dozen blood clots in women who had a pre-existing condition that caused them. Anyone who tells you they aren’t safe is trying to sell you a bridge. If you want to argue against hard data, then you must have an actual data-backed argument or we can just assume you aren’t a serious person.
- forgingahead 5y ago
  You don't seem like you've had much (if any) discussion with folks who are concerned about the vaccine. I would suggest not taking what you see on TV and the internet as gospel and engage with a few folks in real life. There are certainly people who you won't be able to have a discussion with, but you're not being that open-minded either by shutting down everything by declaring "they don't have a legitimate argument". *Edit: The myocarditis issue is real. Please don't handwave away legitimate concerns because of lack of understanding and compassion.

tpush 5y ago

HN has a decent amount of nut jobs (of all kinds) on it. I don't think it correlates much with intelligence.

Buttons840 5y ago

Covid has a low chance of risks. The Covid vaccine has a low chance of risks. People are bad at judging probabilities at the fringes. Yes, the chance of risks from Covid is orders of magnitude higher than the vaccine. People are still bad at it. Politics didn't help the situation.

veeti 5y ago

Sad to see smart people talking about "privacy" when children are in danger.

flyingfences 5y ago
Is this sarcastic, or...?
josephcsible 5y ago
Arguments like that one are why iOS scans all of your photos now.

johnnyb9 5y ago

Actually, a recent study showed there is a "U" shaped curve where the least educated and the most highly educated are the most vaccine hesitant. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v...

c618b9b695c4 5y ago
Granted, I am in my own little bubble, but at $WORK (pharmaceutical company where 90%+ people have a phd), there is nothing but enthusiasm for getting vaccinated. I wish there was a breakdown between disciplines - STEM vs humanities. As an aside, according to random internet site, 1.7% of Americans have a phd.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

It is unfortunate that there is no middle ground between the two. Discussion has devolved into ideological camps and all nuance has been lost. I am vaccinated, advocate others getting vaccinated, have immunocompromised family, but am uncomfortable with mandated medical treatments.

ufmace 5y ago
You're right. There are also edge cases that seem to get lost in the mania of one side or the other. What if you've already had Covid and recovered? The data seems a lot less certain about whether the vaccine is a clear advantage over the natural antibodies that you have from a natural recovery. What if you genuinely have allergies or other issues that might cause serious complications with receiving a vaccine? People like this definitely do exist. Those issues are both real. Alas, it's also tough to prove for certain that somebody is in one of those buckets and not making something up because they're afraid of the vaccine.

mikece 5y ago

Being opposed to mRNA gene therapy is NOT the same as being anti-vax. Likewise, being opposed to any vaccine which is developed using stem cells or tissue from aborted babies due to deeply held moral convictions doesn't make one anti-vax. A true anti-vaxxer is opposed to vaccine EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS. There are very, very few people in that fringe category.

dangoor 5y ago
[mRNA vaccines are distinct from gene therapy](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna-gene/fact-check-mrna-vaccines-are-distinct-from-gene-therapy-which-alters-recipients-genes-idUSL1N2PH16N https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna-gene/fa...).
oezi 5y ago
But mRNA technology is not a gene therapy. As an analogy: mRNA technology is NOT like sending a saboteur into a factory to change the blue prints / designs / masters records (=genes) of the factory. Rather it is like dropping a bunch work instructions (RNA snippets) over the factory and have some workers (cells) pick them up and build the things described there-in. mRNA tech isn't the same as CRISPR. The worst that could happen is that a work instruction that we inject becomes self-replicating (a virus), but because it can't replicate to begin with it there is no way that it mutates to gain such an ability.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

What happened to My Body My Choice?

baron_harkonnen 5y ago

I'm fully vaccinated, but don't think it's crazy for people to be suspicious of the vaccine. In recent years huge swath's of the united states have been suffering from another epidemic: the opioid crisis. It is well established that a major part of this epidemic was caused by many of the same major pharmaceutical companies that are now claiming to have developed a vaccine in record time. What's sad is that this legitimate concern has been whipped up by one side into a completely irrational frenzy that no longer makes coherent sense. I don't trust big pharma companies as a general rule, but I also don't believe that micro chips are being implanted (or even could be) into a vaccine. So, imho, legitimate vaccine skepticism is transformed into insane conspiracy thinking. What is also sad though is that the reaction against vaccine skepticism has been equally turned into an insane "what are you anti-science!?!" Pharmaceutical companies are complicit in the death of hundreds of thousands of individual over the last decade. Being skeptical of the claims of these companies is common sense, not anti-science. We're also seeing consist contradictions about safety and efficacy of the vaccine. There are already complex side effects and the break through rate among full vaccinated is much higher than initial claims. For me personally the vaccine still makes sense, and it certainly seems like our best path forward as far as policy efforts to end the pandemic. However the current language and public discourse on the topic is ridiculous.

a_imho 5y ago

A lot compared to what?

badwolf 5y ago

I'm neither amazed, nor surprised at the utterly insane amount of antivaxxers here in any way.

mtnpuma 5y ago

I agree. Saddened about this, considering the usual level of discussions in here.