8 ms·

The Fierce Legal Battle at the Heart of the Fight over Reclining Airline Seats

28 points by imartin2k 5y ago

blunte 5y ago
The way the article states the rear passenger's claim is wrong. They say, "No, it was mine. I had it first, for my laptop". From the perspective of the rear passenger, the claim is, "This space, this approximate vertical rectangular volume that I occupy with my body and seat, is my space." When the person in front reclines back into that space, they are now taking something away from me. And I'm sorry, but the front passenger has no valid claim. They are either stupid/simple minded, as the woman clearly was, by beliving that they bought the button which gives them (magically? at no harm to anyone else?) extra space to recline into. Let's be frank about it. If you use that button to recline back into someone else's face (because that's about how close it gets these days), then you are an asshole unless you ask them first if they mind... or unless you check first and see they are either reclining themselves or are at least asleep.
- fishtacos 5y ago
  That's a ridiculous conclusion to come to. The seat stands upright for takeoff and landing, but at any other time is available for reclining within a particular angle. The flight attendants even make it a point to let everyone know to put their seat in the upright position, which implies common usage. If the space has become more cramped for the rear passenger, they are welcome to recline and reclaim that same space. Some people (myself included) deal with back and neck issues where sitting up straight is strenuous and causes pain over time, not to mention further encourages poor posture. I understand we're retreading what the article states, but you are wrong in your position. (pun not intended)
PhantomGremlin 5y ago
I have a different solution to the seat conflict: the only winning move is not to play I've taken far fewer flights in recent years. It's just too uncomfortable to travel in steerage, and I'm too poor to afford first class.
- XorNot 5y ago
  I mean this is my solution basically. Flying sucks, and I have sworn to do it as little as possible.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  Yep. I'd much rather drive, or take a train should one be available. That said, if it's for work and my employer already paid for an economy seat, I'm generally okay with splurging a bit out-of-pocket for the business class / first class upgrade. If there was a seating section with first-class seats but none of the extra service I'd take that every time.
- swader999 5y ago
  Same here. Good thing I live where I live.
hirundo 5y ago
> It’s deliberately engineered by the airlines so they can sell that same space twice. It seems more likely that they chose to leave the existing ambiguity in place than that they deliberately engineered it. They have more to lose than gain by designating explicit right-of-way, same with arm rest possession. Instead they leave it to bottom up negotiation, which works well most of the time.
- russellbeattie 5y ago
  Also, if everyone on the plane leans back, as most do, it's all the same amount of space, just at a 45° angle. So the airline is just selling a space with the ability to realign itself as needed.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    Unless you're in the very front, in which case you do gain more space without losing any from someone in front of you.
    - eloisius 5y ago
      Those seats are usually already more expensive to reserve.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > It seems more likely that they chose to leave the existing ambiguity in place than that they deliberately engineered it. Once the same thing has been happening for a long time, and you keep designing it that way, it becomes deliberate engineering.
ggm 5y ago
Yet, one airline which fits seats which can't recline (ryanair)is universally hated. (pre covid, was a frequent flyer. you have to learn to roll with the punches on many things in flight. being in the J class seats makes this specific problem go away, but thats just another form of monetization of the commons)
- dehrmann 5y ago
  The mechanism is more expensive and adds weight. Of course they don't recline. Their value proposition is very clear, and I respect that. I just don't fly with them.
- toast0 5y ago
  Unfortunately, you can't chose an airline that has fixed seats but doesn't do all the rest of the things that make ryanair universally hated. Also, scheduling and direct flights are more important to me than comfort, so even though I would prefer a flight with fixed seats, the airline that hubs out of my nearest airport is going to get most of my business (even if it's not much).
- watwut 5y ago
  I went with Ryanair once. There were like 100 reasons to hate them and I normally like flying.
dmlorenzetti 5y ago
Another example of selling the same space twice is cities moving from fixed parking meters, to meters that print out a parking receipt. With the meter stuck on a pole at the parking space, if I pay for an hour but leave after 20 minutes, the meter still shows time. Somebody else can come and park there for 40 minutes, free. But if I buy a paper receipt and stick on my dashboard, and leave after 20 minutes, the next person still has to rent the same 40 minutes of time. Nobody I mention this to is upset about it (neither am I, at heart, though I do notice it). That suggests to me that conflicts over tray space on airplanes is driven more by a sense of claustrophobia and powerlessness, than by any particular notion of fairness or ownership.
- Clewza313 5y ago
  In Australia, parking at popular beaches is both packed and crazy expensive, with day passes pushing $50, so there's a well-established tradition of giving your parking ticket to the guy waiting to swipe your spot as you pull out. Of course, the councils running the parking didn't want to lose out, so they've "upgraded" to parking meters that require you to punch in your license plate number, which is then printed on the ticket in large letters to make sure it can't be reused.
- rosege 5y ago
  In the Netherlands ( and probably elsewhere) you get a parking app and hit start and stop so you only pay for the exact amount of time you used.
  - switch007 5y ago
    I bet they make a lot of revenue from people forgetting to hit stop
    - gnabgib 5y ago
      I understand your cynicism, but most systems like this have a reasonable maximum timeout (usually the maximum time you're allowed to stay in that zone - 2-3 hours) at which point it'll end the session. While that's far from ideal for a 5 minute stop, it's not the only way to pay (you can also try and guess how long you'll be in the spot and prepay much like meters but to the minute rather than some multiple of the change in your pocket) - and at some point you need to take ownership of your oversight, no?
exogeny 5y ago
The analogue with Disney and FastPass/VIP resonates with me. A few years ago I was speaking on a panel at a two-day conference in LA. My panel was the first day, so I decided to quietly skip out on the second day and go to Magic Mountain instead. My local park back home doesn't have anything like FastPass so when I heard about it, I was excited because I only had a few hours to spend and promptly got it as soon as I got to the park. As I walking to the first ride that I pre-reserved, I came across a family, all wearing the same t-shirt; the kind of shirt you have pre-made for a family event like an outing or a reunion. I thought that was neat and went on my way. Fast forward to an hour or so later, and I see the same family at one of the coasters, standing in line while I walk right ahead and past them to the front. I start to think -- geez, is this sending the right message to this family, that those with more can just zoom ahead? (As a very imperfect solution, I ended up running into them yet another time, right as I was leaving, and I gave them my FastPass.) Life is fraught with a lot of those ambiguities. Or at least I think so. I order DoorDash, even though I know I'm getting convenience at the cost of a exploitative system for the vulnerable and underemployed. There isn't a "correct" answer, just as there's no "correct" answer to the seat problem. Everything is relative. I do tend to think though that with a little empathy for everyone else, you'll do pretty well.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  Force the airlines to articulate a policy upfront (they’re free to make it whatever they want). That way it becomes an externality they’re not allowed to pass on to their customers blamelessly (which apparently they do today so the customers fight amongst themselves instead of blaming the airline). I think that’s the game theory equivalent answer here to the cake cutting solution of “I cut you pick”.
  - DarrenDev 5y ago
    Ryanair - Europe's largest short haul airline - have no reclining seats.
    - vlovich123 5y ago
      And universally despised :).
vlovich123 5y ago
Mine! also discussed on EconTalk [1]. Looks like the authors are on a publicity tour. I wonder if their results in the book hold up over time. Much of Freakonomics doesn’t IIRC. [1] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/econtalk/id135066958?i=1000532794934 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/econtalk/id135066958?i...
rblatz 5y ago
How is this even a debate, if you weren’t supposed to use it they wouldn’t pay extra to install seats with a reclining mechanism.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  I recommend you listen to the conversation or read the book. It covers the authors’ theory that there are 6 basic views of ownership and that Rocky 50% of people when presented with this scenario take a very strong position for their preferred view even though it’s not necessarily more or less right objectively. Fascinating to see this in real-time ;)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deadA1ias 5y ago
  Just because something is legally available to you does not mean it is the right thing to do. A good example of this is one's right not to wear a mask; or ride your unmuffled motorcycle around the neighborhood at 2am. The list goes on...
  - kook_throwaway 5y ago
    Unmuffled motorcycles at night break at least half a dozen laws at every level from local to federal. Masks were also mandated in most of the US. Not the greatest examples.
- blunte 5y ago
  Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you should, or that it's your right to do if it infringes upon someone else's rights. Have you ever flow coach class overseas, and you want to sit upright, but the person in front of you decides to recline fully? The in-flight entertainment screen on the seat is now only about 8 inches in front of your face. Hell, if you have food and drink on your tray table, some of that is being pushed toward you by the now-angled back of the seat. Fuck you if you do that and don't care about the person behind you.
klausjensen 5y ago
I experienced a different twist on this... Flying overseas a few years ago on a group trip, somebody else had booked my ticket, and didn't buy extra legroom for me. I'm 194cm/ 6 foot 4, and my knees were lodged into the back of the seat in front of me, and I couldn't move. The person sitting in front of me was furious at me, because she couldn't recline her seat, yelling about her right to recline the seat. I asked her if she wanted me to cut off my legs, which she didn't have an answer for, but she was still angry the whole trip.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Same for me. My knees are staying put. There's nowhere else for me to put them. You're welcome to recline as much as you want, unless it gets in their way.
- eloisius 5y ago
  She sounds like a jerk, but other than acting out like a child, she isn’t wrong. Personally, I would let it go, but it’s not her fault someone else messed up your ticket. I’m very short and that typically gives me a disadvantage is many scenarios. One of the few places it works to my advantage is aboard a flight. However, more than a few times I’ve sat next so someone very not small, who occupied some of my space for the duration of the flight. Politeness dictates that I can’t complain, because obviously I can’t expect someone to drastically alter their shape for the next few hours. But how is it fair?
  - klausjensen 5y ago
    Tall or short, big or small - each height/size etc comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages - fair or unfair. Part of flying coach and having very cheap air-fares is we have to put up with sub-optimal conditions and risk having to be tolerant of our fellow travelers. It is part of the unwritten contract. Screaming kids, drunks, people with questionable hygiene, snorers, rowdy groups, people taking up extra space, super-talkative neighbours etc etc. If we are serious enough about wanting to lower the risk of such inconvenience, we need to get out the plastic and pay for economy plus, business class etc.
Animats 5y ago
It gets worse. The "standing seat" concept is back.[1] [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/skyrider-standing-plane-seats-future-of-budget-flying/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/skyrider-standing-pl...
- quelltext 5y ago
  Good, that "solves" the problem for all the tall folks. Nobody can recline, and by definition everyone has "leg space".
  - tintor 5y ago
    Unless the standing space "reclines" to diagonal. :)
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  Oh god. I always dreamed to fly aboard a sci-fi dropship, but now I'm realizing I don't actually want to travel like that in the real world.
hbosch 5y ago
The wording of this is weird (even if I get the point). Airlines don't sell you space, they sell you a seat too. If I pay for a seat, and it has a recline button on it, I'm entitled to use that button and recline my seat -- I really don't see any room for another interpretation. I do always feel a little guilty by reclining. Especially with some of those seats that by reclining, the seatback media player is tilted just so that it's harder to watch. And on Amtrak one time, my wife reclined her seat too quickly and the woman behind us spilled her water on herself -- that was embarrassing for us all, honestly. But the point stands. I can recline my seat, and you can recline yours, and that's the way it is. For those of you that want to take a passive aggressive route, by the way, my father in law says if he really needs to use his laptop en route he will point his air con at the recliner in front of him until they sit up straight. Maybe try that.
- switch007 5y ago
  There is more to it than your entitlement. Is the person behind you not entitled to comfort? Your car is sold with a horn. Are you entitled to sit on it for 10 minutes at 3am in a residential area for no reason? Possibly. Should you? That’s the more important question when we live in a society. Also if your father in law absolutely needs to use his laptop perhaps he should fly business class (I can’t speak to domestic services but internationally you’re guaranteed to be unaffected by others’ seats)
  - skhr0680 5y ago
    There’s a pretty big gap between “needs to work on flight” and “can afford business class”
    - switch007 5y ago
      Premium Economy bridges the gap. When has there been any alluding to or promise of being able to work in economy? It always seemed best effort. Eg if your laptop was small enough, if you’re at a seat with power, if the person wasn’t reclining. IMO you should not book economy with the expectation to work for any decent portion of it uninterrupted. (Again this an EU/international view. I’ve not flown US domestic)
wombatmobile 5y ago
> Each time they push us an inch closer, they get to put six extra seats on the plane, so it’s actually quite valuable to them to shrink the pitch. And they’re able to do so because the FAA decided to allow the airlines to keep shrinking the pitch, and as they do, that wedge of space becomes a more valuable resource. See FAA regulatory capture. Here's one of many articles with that theme https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34045023/boeing-737-max-regulatory-capture/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34045023/boe...
- Clewza313 5y ago
  The original article is off base here. As far as I know, there are no FAA requirements for minimum seat pitch, only for being able to evacuate the airplane fast enough. As it happens, in 2018 Congress mandated the FAA to come up with some standards, but as of last year it hadn't happened: https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Congress-FAA-to-set-standards-for-seat-size-delay https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Congre...
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    > in 2018 Congress mandated the FAA to come up with some standards, but as of last year it hadn't happened Exactly
poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
Even in business class I had some showdown with guy behind me who's angry he doesn't have more leg room. Early morning flight, I upgraded because I needed to sleep, and the guy wakes me up mid flight by violently kicking the back of my seat. When I turn to confront him he angrily tells me to pull my seat up. I don't even talk to him, I just buzz the flight attendant and told her what happened. She speaks to him but he started doing it again. I buzzed her again. Don't know what she said but this time he stopped.
- genocidicbunny 5y ago
  Probably something along the lines that if he does it again, he'll be spending his arrival meeting with some nice airport police officers at the destination. Flight attendants have a lot of authority in-flight.
tzs 5y ago
Why don't airlines give you the option when you buy your ticket of saying if you are going to recline or not? Then seat "going to recline" people in front of other "going to recline" people, and seat "not going to recline" people in front of other "not going to recline" people.
- arodgers_la 5y ago
  Airlines are not going to implement that out of the goodness of their hearts, especially since they overbook flights regularly and have no idea if a given seat will be in use by a given person until boarding time.

28 points by imartin2k 5y ago

The way the article states the rear passenger's claim is wrong. They say, "No, it was mine. I had it first, for my laptop". From the perspective of the rear passenger, the claim is, "This space, this approximate vertical rectangular volume that I occupy with my body and seat, is my space." When the person in front reclines back into that space, they are now taking something away from me. And I'm sorry, but the front passenger has no valid claim. They are either stupid/simple minded, as the woman clearly was, by beliving that they bought the button which gives them (magically? at no harm to anyone else?) extra space to recline into. Let's be frank about it. If you use that button to recline back into someone else's face (because that's about how close it gets these days), then you are an asshole unless you ask them first if they mind... or unless you check first and see they are either reclining themselves or are at least asleep.

fishtacos 5y ago
That's a ridiculous conclusion to come to. The seat stands upright for takeoff and landing, but at any other time is available for reclining within a particular angle. The flight attendants even make it a point to let everyone know to put their seat in the upright position, which implies common usage. If the space has become more cramped for the rear passenger, they are welcome to recline and reclaim that same space. Some people (myself included) deal with back and neck issues where sitting up straight is strenuous and causes pain over time, not to mention further encourages poor posture. I understand we're retreading what the article states, but you are wrong in your position. (pun not intended)

PhantomGremlin 5y ago

I have a different solution to the seat conflict: the only winning move is not to play I've taken far fewer flights in recent years. It's just too uncomfortable to travel in steerage, and I'm too poor to afford first class.

XorNot 5y ago
I mean this is my solution basically. Flying sucks, and I have sworn to do it as little as possible.
yellowapple 5y ago
Yep. I'd much rather drive, or take a train should one be available. That said, if it's for work and my employer already paid for an economy seat, I'm generally okay with splurging a bit out-of-pocket for the business class / first class upgrade. If there was a seating section with first-class seats but none of the extra service I'd take that every time.
swader999 5y ago
Same here. Good thing I live where I live.

hirundo 5y ago

> It’s deliberately engineered by the airlines so they can sell that same space twice. It seems more likely that they chose to leave the existing ambiguity in place than that they deliberately engineered it. They have more to lose than gain by designating explicit right-of-way, same with arm rest possession. Instead they leave it to bottom up negotiation, which works well most of the time.

russellbeattie 5y ago
Also, if everyone on the plane leans back, as most do, it's all the same amount of space, just at a 45° angle. So the airline is just selling a space with the ability to realign itself as needed.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  Unless you're in the very front, in which case you do gain more space without losing any from someone in front of you.
  - eloisius 5y ago
    Those seats are usually already more expensive to reserve.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> It seems more likely that they chose to leave the existing ambiguity in place than that they deliberately engineered it. Once the same thing has been happening for a long time, and you keep designing it that way, it becomes deliberate engineering.

ggm 5y ago

Yet, one airline which fits seats which can't recline (ryanair)is universally hated. (pre covid, was a frequent flyer. you have to learn to roll with the punches on many things in flight. being in the J class seats makes this specific problem go away, but thats just another form of monetization of the commons)

dehrmann 5y ago
The mechanism is more expensive and adds weight. Of course they don't recline. Their value proposition is very clear, and I respect that. I just don't fly with them.
toast0 5y ago
Unfortunately, you can't chose an airline that has fixed seats but doesn't do all the rest of the things that make ryanair universally hated. Also, scheduling and direct flights are more important to me than comfort, so even though I would prefer a flight with fixed seats, the airline that hubs out of my nearest airport is going to get most of my business (even if it's not much).
watwut 5y ago
I went with Ryanair once. There were like 100 reasons to hate them and I normally like flying.

dmlorenzetti 5y ago

Another example of selling the same space twice is cities moving from fixed parking meters, to meters that print out a parking receipt. With the meter stuck on a pole at the parking space, if I pay for an hour but leave after 20 minutes, the meter still shows time. Somebody else can come and park there for 40 minutes, free. But if I buy a paper receipt and stick on my dashboard, and leave after 20 minutes, the next person still has to rent the same 40 minutes of time. Nobody I mention this to is upset about it (neither am I, at heart, though I do notice it). That suggests to me that conflicts over tray space on airplanes is driven more by a sense of claustrophobia and powerlessness, than by any particular notion of fairness or ownership.

Clewza313 5y ago
In Australia, parking at popular beaches is both packed and crazy expensive, with day passes pushing $50, so there's a well-established tradition of giving your parking ticket to the guy waiting to swipe your spot as you pull out. Of course, the councils running the parking didn't want to lose out, so they've "upgraded" to parking meters that require you to punch in your license plate number, which is then printed on the ticket in large letters to make sure it can't be reused.
rosege 5y ago
In the Netherlands ( and probably elsewhere) you get a parking app and hit start and stop so you only pay for the exact amount of time you used.
- switch007 5y ago
  I bet they make a lot of revenue from people forgetting to hit stop
  - gnabgib 5y ago
    I understand your cynicism, but most systems like this have a reasonable maximum timeout (usually the maximum time you're allowed to stay in that zone - 2-3 hours) at which point it'll end the session. While that's far from ideal for a 5 minute stop, it's not the only way to pay (you can also try and guess how long you'll be in the spot and prepay much like meters but to the minute rather than some multiple of the change in your pocket) - and at some point you need to take ownership of your oversight, no?

exogeny 5y ago

The analogue with Disney and FastPass/VIP resonates with me. A few years ago I was speaking on a panel at a two-day conference in LA. My panel was the first day, so I decided to quietly skip out on the second day and go to Magic Mountain instead. My local park back home doesn't have anything like FastPass so when I heard about it, I was excited because I only had a few hours to spend and promptly got it as soon as I got to the park. As I walking to the first ride that I pre-reserved, I came across a family, all wearing the same t-shirt; the kind of shirt you have pre-made for a family event like an outing or a reunion. I thought that was neat and went on my way. Fast forward to an hour or so later, and I see the same family at one of the coasters, standing in line while I walk right ahead and past them to the front. I start to think -- geez, is this sending the right message to this family, that those with more can just zoom ahead? (As a very imperfect solution, I ended up running into them yet another time, right as I was leaving, and I gave them my FastPass.) Life is fraught with a lot of those ambiguities. Or at least I think so. I order DoorDash, even though I know I'm getting convenience at the cost of a exploitative system for the vulnerable and underemployed. There isn't a "correct" answer, just as there's no "correct" answer to the seat problem. Everything is relative. I do tend to think though that with a little empathy for everyone else, you'll do pretty well.

vlovich123 5y ago
Force the airlines to articulate a policy upfront (they’re free to make it whatever they want). That way it becomes an externality they’re not allowed to pass on to their customers blamelessly (which apparently they do today so the customers fight amongst themselves instead of blaming the airline). I think that’s the game theory equivalent answer here to the cake cutting solution of “I cut you pick”.
- DarrenDev 5y ago
  Ryanair - Europe's largest short haul airline - have no reclining seats.
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    And universally despised :).

vlovich123 5y ago

Mine! also discussed on EconTalk [1]. Looks like the authors are on a publicity tour. I wonder if their results in the book hold up over time. Much of Freakonomics doesn’t IIRC. [1] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/econtalk/id135066958?i=1000532794934 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/econtalk/id135066958?i...

rblatz 5y ago

How is this even a debate, if you weren’t supposed to use it they wouldn’t pay extra to install seats with a reclining mechanism.

vlovich123 5y ago
I recommend you listen to the conversation or read the book. It covers the authors’ theory that there are 6 basic views of ownership and that Rocky 50% of people when presented with this scenario take a very strong position for their preferred view even though it’s not necessarily more or less right objectively. Fascinating to see this in real-time ;)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deadA1ias 5y ago
Just because something is legally available to you does not mean it is the right thing to do. A good example of this is one's right not to wear a mask; or ride your unmuffled motorcycle around the neighborhood at 2am. The list goes on...
- kook_throwaway 5y ago
  Unmuffled motorcycles at night break at least half a dozen laws at every level from local to federal. Masks were also mandated in most of the US. Not the greatest examples.
blunte 5y ago
Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you should, or that it's your right to do if it infringes upon someone else's rights. Have you ever flow coach class overseas, and you want to sit upright, but the person in front of you decides to recline fully? The in-flight entertainment screen on the seat is now only about 8 inches in front of your face. Hell, if you have food and drink on your tray table, some of that is being pushed toward you by the now-angled back of the seat. Fuck you if you do that and don't care about the person behind you.

klausjensen 5y ago

I experienced a different twist on this... Flying overseas a few years ago on a group trip, somebody else had booked my ticket, and didn't buy extra legroom for me. I'm 194cm/ 6 foot 4, and my knees were lodged into the back of the seat in front of me, and I couldn't move. The person sitting in front of me was furious at me, because she couldn't recline her seat, yelling about her right to recline the seat. I asked her if she wanted me to cut off my legs, which she didn't have an answer for, but she was still angry the whole trip.

raverbashing 5y ago
Same for me. My knees are staying put. There's nowhere else for me to put them. You're welcome to recline as much as you want, unless it gets in their way.
eloisius 5y ago
She sounds like a jerk, but other than acting out like a child, she isn’t wrong. Personally, I would let it go, but it’s not her fault someone else messed up your ticket. I’m very short and that typically gives me a disadvantage is many scenarios. One of the few places it works to my advantage is aboard a flight. However, more than a few times I’ve sat next so someone very not small, who occupied some of my space for the duration of the flight. Politeness dictates that I can’t complain, because obviously I can’t expect someone to drastically alter their shape for the next few hours. But how is it fair?
- klausjensen 5y ago
  Tall or short, big or small - each height/size etc comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages - fair or unfair. Part of flying coach and having very cheap air-fares is we have to put up with sub-optimal conditions and risk having to be tolerant of our fellow travelers. It is part of the unwritten contract. Screaming kids, drunks, people with questionable hygiene, snorers, rowdy groups, people taking up extra space, super-talkative neighbours etc etc. If we are serious enough about wanting to lower the risk of such inconvenience, we need to get out the plastic and pay for economy plus, business class etc.

Animats 5y ago

It gets worse. The "standing seat" concept is back.[1] [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/skyrider-standing-plane-seats-future-of-budget-flying/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/skyrider-standing-pl...

quelltext 5y ago
Good, that "solves" the problem for all the tall folks. Nobody can recline, and by definition everyone has "leg space".
- tintor 5y ago
  Unless the standing space "reclines" to diagonal. :)
TeMPOraL 5y ago
Oh god. I always dreamed to fly aboard a sci-fi dropship, but now I'm realizing I don't actually want to travel like that in the real world.

hbosch 5y ago

The wording of this is weird (even if I get the point). Airlines don't sell you space, they sell you a seat too. If I pay for a seat, and it has a recline button on it, I'm entitled to use that button and recline my seat -- I really don't see any room for another interpretation. I do always feel a little guilty by reclining. Especially with some of those seats that by reclining, the seatback media player is tilted just so that it's harder to watch. And on Amtrak one time, my wife reclined her seat too quickly and the woman behind us spilled her water on herself -- that was embarrassing for us all, honestly. But the point stands. I can recline my seat, and you can recline yours, and that's the way it is. For those of you that want to take a passive aggressive route, by the way, my father in law says if he really needs to use his laptop en route he will point his air con at the recliner in front of him until they sit up straight. Maybe try that.

switch007 5y ago
There is more to it than your entitlement. Is the person behind you not entitled to comfort? Your car is sold with a horn. Are you entitled to sit on it for 10 minutes at 3am in a residential area for no reason? Possibly. Should you? That’s the more important question when we live in a society. Also if your father in law absolutely needs to use his laptop perhaps he should fly business class (I can’t speak to domestic services but internationally you’re guaranteed to be unaffected by others’ seats)
- skhr0680 5y ago
  There’s a pretty big gap between “needs to work on flight” and “can afford business class”
  - switch007 5y ago
    Premium Economy bridges the gap. When has there been any alluding to or promise of being able to work in economy? It always seemed best effort. Eg if your laptop was small enough, if you’re at a seat with power, if the person wasn’t reclining. IMO you should not book economy with the expectation to work for any decent portion of it uninterrupted. (Again this an EU/international view. I’ve not flown US domestic)

wombatmobile 5y ago

> Each time they push us an inch closer, they get to put six extra seats on the plane, so it’s actually quite valuable to them to shrink the pitch. And they’re able to do so because the FAA decided to allow the airlines to keep shrinking the pitch, and as they do, that wedge of space becomes a more valuable resource. See FAA regulatory capture. Here's one of many articles with that theme https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34045023/boeing-737-max-regulatory-capture/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34045023/boe...

Clewza313 5y ago
The original article is off base here. As far as I know, there are no FAA requirements for minimum seat pitch, only for being able to evacuate the airplane fast enough. As it happens, in 2018 Congress mandated the FAA to come up with some standards, but as of last year it hadn't happened: https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Congress-FAA-to-set-standards-for-seat-size-delay https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Congre...
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  > in 2018 Congress mandated the FAA to come up with some standards, but as of last year it hadn't happened Exactly

poorjohnmacafee 5y ago

Even in business class I had some showdown with guy behind me who's angry he doesn't have more leg room. Early morning flight, I upgraded because I needed to sleep, and the guy wakes me up mid flight by violently kicking the back of my seat. When I turn to confront him he angrily tells me to pull my seat up. I don't even talk to him, I just buzz the flight attendant and told her what happened. She speaks to him but he started doing it again. I buzzed her again. Don't know what she said but this time he stopped.

genocidicbunny 5y ago
Probably something along the lines that if he does it again, he'll be spending his arrival meeting with some nice airport police officers at the destination. Flight attendants have a lot of authority in-flight.

tzs 5y ago

Why don't airlines give you the option when you buy your ticket of saying if you are going to recline or not? Then seat "going to recline" people in front of other "going to recline" people, and seat "not going to recline" people in front of other "not going to recline" people.

arodgers_la 5y ago
Airlines are not going to implement that out of the goodness of their hearts, especially since they overbook flights regularly and have no idea if a given seat will be in use by a given person until boarding time.