6 ms·

Currently probably because M1 is absurdly better than the competition. They will certainly draw users away from Linux unless either this porting effort gets don

Currently probably because M1 is absurdly better than the competition. They will certainly draw users away from Linux unless either this porting effort gets done, or unless other ARM options that support Linux better become available.

p4bl0 5y ago
> They will certainly draw users away from Linux And the beauty of non commercial software is that we don't actually have to care about that. If people choose performance increase over freedom, you can't really chose for them. Now I'm not saying that we should not port free software to the M1. I'm saying that the good reason to do so is because the people porting it want to have it there, rather than thinking in term of user retention.
- nixpulvis 5y ago
  The problem, as I see it, is that "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay to port it. Back in the glory of more universal general computers this was perhaps a lesser spoken requirement of the system. Today, it's clear to me that we are slipping back into chaos. EDIT: Seems like FSF's "freedom to run" might fit the definitional benchmark for me. I'm not really sure how people are going to react to that though ;)
  - p4bl0 5y ago
    > "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay Not the same meaning of "free". But anyway, for now, you have to pay Apple prices to have a computer with an M1 chip on it. If the price is a string requirement, one probably won't buy Apple hardware and rather get something that less expensive and is already well supported by free software :).
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - nixpulvis 5y ago
      > Not the same meaning of "free". But anyway Would you care to enlighten me please? Otherwise your comment is of no value.
      - p4bl0 5y ago
        The meaning of "free" in "free software" is the one from "freedom" or "free speech". It is about liberty, not price. You can totally sell free software for example. And a lot of people are paid to develop free software (so the software itself is not free as in $0 even if it is so for end users). I'm far from agreeing with everything the FSF says or does, but see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html for more information.
      - CogitoCogito 5y ago
        “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. Roughly, it means that the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. Thus, “free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer”. We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis. You may have paid money to get copies of a free program, or you may have obtained copies at no charge. But regardless of how you got your copies, you always have the freedom to copy and change the software, even to sell copies. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
      - dncornholio 5y ago
        There's basically only 2 meanings for free (not in jail, price of 0), so if it's not the one, it's the other. Don't think his comment wasn't of value to me.
        nixpulvis 5y ago
        Then I fear you've oversimplified your model. I believe there is a lot of grey area between being placed behind physical bars and being forced to pay for services. For example, let's say one comes down with a horrible disease, clearly they are not being directly charged in cash and no police have been involved. Yet I can't shake the feeling that they have been parted with some freedoms. Anyway, food for thought. This thread is perilous.
    - karatinversion 5y ago
      To quote fsf, > Free software means that the users have the freedom to run, edit, contribute to, and share the software. Thus, free software is a matter of liberty, not price.
      - nixpulvis 5y ago
        "freedom to run"
    - linguae 5y ago
      The remarkable thing about Apple prices these days is just how affordable powerful M1 computers are. The entry-level Mac Mini costs $699 (https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini). In single-core CPU benchmarks the M1 chip has a Geekbench score of 1744 (https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/9460112 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/9460112), which is slightly higher than the Intel Core i9-11900F, which scored 1726 (https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-core-i9-11900f https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-core-i9-11900...) and has a recommended customer price of $422-$432 (https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/212254/intel-core-i9-11900f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-20-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/212254/...). (To be fair, in multi-core benchmarks the i9 outperforms the M1 by nearly 2000 GeekBench points, but the M1 is still comparable with good chips like the AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX) By the time you add a motherboard, RAM, storage, and graphics, a Core i9-11900F build would be more expensive than an entry-level Mac Mini. Also, the M1 chip has a TDP of just 15W, while the Core i9-11900F has a 65W TDP. While it's unfortunate that Apple has kept many of the technical details of their M1 Macs secret, thus making it a gigantic effort to port Linux and other alternative operating systems to it, what has people so excited about the M1 is the performance-per-watt and performance-per-dollar ratios the chip provides.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    Free Software is not about getting stuff for free and never was. Free refers to freedom/liberty. > Free software is software that gives you the user the freedom to share, study and modify it. We call this free software because the user is free. https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > And the beauty of non commercial software is that we don't actually have to care about that. If that's really true, then why are so many so intent on increasing Linux Desktop adoption? Popularity means more people working on it, more people making software for it, more hardware having drivers, etc.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Recent Ryzen chips perform better than M1 chips.
- johan_felisaz 5y ago
  I'm curious, sources ?
- floatboth 5y ago
  Not in most workloads, no. M1 is made on a better fab. Future chips might be better, provided the next process they use (rumors are, TSMC "6nm") is close enough to TSMC "5nm".
- cr3ative 5y ago
  Define "perform". Power efficiency? Raw processing speed? Both?
- h4x0r12345 5y ago
  The M1 significantly outperforms Ryzen when measured by performance/watt and single-core performance
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
DonHopkins 5y ago
But the point is that Apple's software that runs on the M1 is absurdly better than the competition, especially on the M1, because both the macOS software and the M1 hardware were designed to work together hand-in-hand fast and efficiently. So even if you could get all the hardware drivers working properly, Linux/Gnome still will lose out to macOS because that hardware simply wasn't designed for that software, and that software simply wasn't designed for that hardware, while macOS and M1 were both designed to work together. But Gnome was originally designed to run on X-Windows, whose hardware model is a MicroVAX framebuffer on acid. https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398ebd47 https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398... The color situation is a total flying circus. The X approach to device independence is to treat everything like a MicroVAX framebuffer on acid. A truly portable X application is required to act like the persistent customer in Monty Python’s “Cheese Shop” sketch, or a grail seeker in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail.” Even the simplest applications must answer many difficult questions: WHAT IS YOUR DISPLAY? display = XOpenDisplay("unix:0"); WHAT IS YOUR ROOT? root = RootWindow(display, DefaultScreen(display)); AND WHAT IS YOUR WINDOW? win = XCreateSimpleWindow(display, root, 0, 0, 256, 256, 1, BlackPixel( display, DefaultScreen(display)), WhitePixel( display, DefaultScreen(display))); OH ALL RIGHT, YOU CAN GO ON. (the next client tries to connect to the server) WHAT IS YOUR DISPLAY? display = XOpenDisplay("unix:0"); WHAT IS YOUR COLORMAP? cmap = DefaultColormap(display, DefaultScreen(display)); AND WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE COLOR? favorite_color = 0; /* Black. */ /* Whoops! No, I mean: */ favorite_color = BlackPixel(display, DefaultScreen(display)); /* AAAYYYYEEEEE!! */ (client dumps core & falls into the chasm) WHAT IS YOUR DISPLAY? display = XOpenDisplay("unix:0"); WHAT IS YOUR VISUAL? struct XVisualInfo vinfo; if (XMatchVisualInfo(display, DefaultScreen(display), 8, PseudoColor, &vinfo) != 0) visual = vinfo.visual; AND WHAT IS THE NET SPEED VELOCITY OF AN XConfigureWindow REQUEST? /* Is that a SubstructureRedirectMask or a ResizeRedirectMask? */ WHAT??! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT? AAAAUUUGGGHHH!!!! (server dumps core & falls into the chasm)
- zamadatix 5y ago
  The "it was all designed by Apple so can't be outperformed in parts" has got to be a trope at this point. If that's the case why is Chrome able to put benchmark Safari on my M1? Not to mention the OS shouldn't be the bottleneck for anything performance related in a desktop type system anyways.

p4bl0 5y ago

> They will certainly draw users away from Linux And the beauty of non commercial software is that we don't actually have to care about that. If people choose performance increase over freedom, you can't really chose for them. Now I'm not saying that we should not port free software to the M1. I'm saying that the good reason to do so is because the people porting it want to have it there, rather than thinking in term of user retention.

nixpulvis 5y ago
The problem, as I see it, is that "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay to port it. Back in the glory of more universal general computers this was perhaps a lesser spoken requirement of the system. Today, it's clear to me that we are slipping back into chaos. EDIT: Seems like FSF's "freedom to run" might fit the definitional benchmark for me. I'm not really sure how people are going to react to that though ;)
- p4bl0 5y ago
  > "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay Not the same meaning of "free". But anyway, for now, you have to pay Apple prices to have a computer with an M1 chip on it. If the price is a string requirement, one probably won't buy Apple hardware and rather get something that less expensive and is already well supported by free software :).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - nixpulvis 5y ago
    > Not the same meaning of "free". But anyway Would you care to enlighten me please? Otherwise your comment is of no value.
    - p4bl0 5y ago
      The meaning of "free" in "free software" is the one from "freedom" or "free speech". It is about liberty, not price. You can totally sell free software for example. And a lot of people are paid to develop free software (so the software itself is not free as in $0 even if it is so for end users). I'm far from agreeing with everything the FSF says or does, but see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html for more information.
    - CogitoCogito 5y ago
      “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. Roughly, it means that the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. Thus, “free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer”. We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis. You may have paid money to get copies of a free program, or you may have obtained copies at no charge. But regardless of how you got your copies, you always have the freedom to copy and change the software, even to sell copies. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
    - dncornholio 5y ago
      There's basically only 2 meanings for free (not in jail, price of 0), so if it's not the one, it's the other. Don't think his comment wasn't of value to me.
      - nixpulvis 5y ago
        Then I fear you've oversimplified your model. I believe there is a lot of grey area between being placed behind physical bars and being forced to pay for services. For example, let's say one comes down with a horrible disease, clearly they are not being directly charged in cash and no police have been involved. Yet I can't shake the feeling that they have been parted with some freedoms. Anyway, food for thought. This thread is perilous.
  - karatinversion 5y ago
    To quote fsf, > Free software means that the users have the freedom to run, edit, contribute to, and share the software. Thus, free software is a matter of liberty, not price.
    - nixpulvis 5y ago
      "freedom to run"
  - linguae 5y ago
    The remarkable thing about Apple prices these days is just how affordable powerful M1 computers are. The entry-level Mac Mini costs $699 (https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini). In single-core CPU benchmarks the M1 chip has a Geekbench score of 1744 (https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/9460112 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/9460112), which is slightly higher than the Intel Core i9-11900F, which scored 1726 (https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-core-i9-11900f https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-core-i9-11900...) and has a recommended customer price of $422-$432 (https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/212254/intel-core-i9-11900f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-20-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/212254/...). (To be fair, in multi-core benchmarks the i9 outperforms the M1 by nearly 2000 GeekBench points, but the M1 is still comparable with good chips like the AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX) By the time you add a motherboard, RAM, storage, and graphics, a Core i9-11900F build would be more expensive than an entry-level Mac Mini. Also, the M1 chip has a TDP of just 15W, while the Core i9-11900F has a 65W TDP. While it's unfortunate that Apple has kept many of the technical details of their M1 Macs secret, thus making it a gigantic effort to port Linux and other alternative operating systems to it, what has people so excited about the M1 is the performance-per-watt and performance-per-dollar ratios the chip provides.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- alpaca128 5y ago
  Free Software is not about getting stuff for free and never was. Free refers to freedom/liberty. > Free software is software that gives you the user the freedom to share, study and modify it. We call this free software because the user is free. https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> And the beauty of non commercial software is that we don't actually have to care about that. If that's really true, then why are so many so intent on increasing Linux Desktop adoption? Popularity means more people working on it, more people making software for it, more hardware having drivers, etc.

heavyset_go 5y ago

Recent Ryzen chips perform better than M1 chips.

johan_felisaz 5y ago
I'm curious, sources ?
floatboth 5y ago
Not in most workloads, no. M1 is made on a better fab. Future chips might be better, provided the next process they use (rumors are, TSMC "6nm") is close enough to TSMC "5nm".
cr3ative 5y ago
Define "perform". Power efficiency? Raw processing speed? Both?
h4x0r12345 5y ago
The M1 significantly outperforms Ryzen when measured by performance/watt and single-core performance
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

DonHopkins 5y ago

But the point is that Apple's software that runs on the M1 is absurdly better than the competition, especially on the M1, because both the macOS software and the M1 hardware were designed to work together hand-in-hand fast and efficiently. So even if you could get all the hardware drivers working properly, Linux/Gnome still will lose out to macOS because that hardware simply wasn't designed for that software, and that software simply wasn't designed for that hardware, while macOS and M1 were both designed to work together. But Gnome was originally designed to run on X-Windows, whose hardware model is a MicroVAX framebuffer on acid. https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398ebd47 https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398... The color situation is a total flying circus. The X approach to device independence is to treat everything like a MicroVAX framebuffer on acid. A truly portable X application is required to act like the persistent customer in Monty Python’s “Cheese Shop” sketch, or a grail seeker in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail.” Even the simplest applications must answer many difficult questions: WHAT IS YOUR DISPLAY? display = XOpenDisplay("unix:0"); WHAT IS YOUR ROOT? root = RootWindow(display, DefaultScreen(display)); AND WHAT IS YOUR WINDOW? win = XCreateSimpleWindow(display, root, 0, 0, 256, 256, 1, BlackPixel( display, DefaultScreen(display)), WhitePixel( display, DefaultScreen(display))); OH ALL RIGHT, YOU CAN GO ON. (the next client tries to connect to the server) WHAT IS YOUR DISPLAY? display = XOpenDisplay("unix:0"); WHAT IS YOUR COLORMAP? cmap = DefaultColormap(display, DefaultScreen(display)); AND WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE COLOR? favorite_color = 0; /* Black. */ /* Whoops! No, I mean: */ favorite_color = BlackPixel(display, DefaultScreen(display)); /* AAAYYYYEEEEE!! */ (client dumps core & falls into the chasm) WHAT IS YOUR DISPLAY? display = XOpenDisplay("unix:0"); WHAT IS YOUR VISUAL? struct XVisualInfo vinfo; if (XMatchVisualInfo(display, DefaultScreen(display), 8, PseudoColor, &vinfo) != 0) visual = vinfo.visual; AND WHAT IS THE NET SPEED VELOCITY OF AN XConfigureWindow REQUEST? /* Is that a SubstructureRedirectMask or a ResizeRedirectMask? */ WHAT??! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT? AAAAUUUGGGHHH!!!! (server dumps core & falls into the chasm)

zamadatix 5y ago
The "it was all designed by Apple so can't be outperformed in parts" has got to be a trope at this point. If that's the case why is Chrome able to put benchmark Safari on my M1? Not to mention the OS shouldn't be the bottleneck for anything performance related in a desktop type system anyways.