5 ms·

SawStop is or was trying to get the government to ban the sale of saws without flesh detection technology. Guess who holds the patents for said technology? Bos

SawStop is or was trying to get the government to ban the sale of saws without flesh detection technology. Guess who holds the patents for said technology? Bosch came out with a superior design that doesn't use a brake at all, but were barred from selling it in the US because it infringed SawStop's patents.

bsder 5y ago
> SawStop is or was trying to get the government to ban the sale of saws without flesh detection technology. Yeah, that's bad. When you resort to lobbying, you're no longer on the good side of the ledger.
- slownews45 5y ago
  Tell that to the kids whose hands are saved. https://www.swnewsmedia.com/shakopee_valley_news/news/education/these-saws-are-saving-one-finger-at-a-time-at-shakopee-west-middle-school/article_dc03d99b-e265-50b3-82e5-58aefa9398b5.html https://www.swnewsmedia.com/shakopee_valley_news/news/educat...
  - bsder 5y ago
    We have a SawStop in our space for exactly that reason. However, I don't find forcing everyone to have it by law to be particularly palatable. I will tell you, however, that it goes off about once a month like clockwork and, as far as I can tell, it hasn't yet fired because someone was about to get injured (this is a good thing--it means our people aren't being stupid). It's a $100-$200 hit every single time it fires. So, we have an ongoing expense of about $1500 every year for SawStop. That's a new saw every year. Should that really be forced on people?
    - LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
      If it’s happening that frequently, and it’s not due to contact with flesh, then you’re cutting material that you shouldn’t be, or you should be disabling the protection feature.
      - bsder 5y ago
        > you’re cutting material that you shouldn’t be, or you should be disabling the protection feature. I will absolutely fight you on this tooth and nail. 1) I don't want anyone to get into the habit of turning off safety features. Ever. 2) If the material can be cut on that saw without the SawStop, it should be able to be cut with the SawStop. If it can't, the fault is with SawStop, not the user. I'm happy to pay the extra money for the extra safety. However, I will NOT allow you to blame the user for the fact that SawStop has not uncommon failure modes.
        whoknowswhat11 5y ago
        Uhh - the manual will tell you not to cut aluminum, very wet wood etc with sawstop feature on. If you turn off feature you are back to your regular saw - hopefully you use a stick etc in all cases because as you note replacing cartridges is expensive. One thing I like, it'll put feature back on automatically for the next time machine gets turned on.
        bsder 5y ago
        The user's definition of "wet wood" and SawStop's often differ quite significantly. Hope you're keeping a moisture meter nearby. You also have to wait for the blade to come to a complete stop before touching anything or you will fire the system. This can be annoying when you have the motor turned off, retracted the blade, and start setting up your fence only to have the system fire because it wasn't quite stopped. Was there a sticker on something that was slightly metallic? Oops. I'm happy to have a SawStop on my saws, and I would even recommend it. However, given how often it false fires, I'm not sure I would mandate it by law.
        hellbannedguy 5y ago
        Every piece of wood at Home depot has a staple in it for the upc code.
        5y ago
    - dheera 5y ago
      I think it's completely reasonable to require it but also mandate that the health insurance companies pay for it, and all cartridge replacements. It's in their best interest to prevent accidents, and the cost is miniscule compared to even a single ER visit.
      - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
        Especially in SF bay area $18K for a bottle of milk for a baby etc (trauma activation fees are crazy).
    - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
      Absolutely not - no where did I say that anyone should be forced to buy the saw. I was merely pointing out that saying you would never buy a sawstop for whatever crazy reason (ie, other companies wouldn't pay them the $3-$10 or whatever) seems a bit ridiculous. If you have a fair number of folks using the saw, have them touch materials to saw first with saw off to get a read on it or list the ones not recommended.
- Bud 5y ago
  Lobbying is simply the practice of petitioning the government to adopt a given policy. That's a foundation of democracy, really: the right to petition the government. I think you might want to re-examine your view a bit.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    >> Lobbying is simply the practice of petitioning the government to adopt a given policy. Adopting a policy is different from having them mandate what people buy. Hey, have people buy epipens and keep one at the school for each kid with allergies. Then later we will raise our prices 1000 percent. That's not influencing policy, its fucking people all the way to the bank - with government assistance.
  - specialist 5y ago
    I've done some unpaid policy work. Defending democracy by advocating election integrity. No one is writing books about my mendacious activities. FANG has a phalanx of former electeds and staffers paid to hustle their former colleagues. To defend their grift and dismantle civil society. Grist for an endless torrent of outrage porn. While pendants will argue both me and FANG are "lobbying", petitioning our governments, our respective efforts hardly seem comparable.
slownews45 5y ago
This is actually totally false. Sawstop dropped blade below table. Bosch also dropped blade below table. So the invention was very fast acting sensing and then dropping blade. Sawstop added brake. Sawstop ALSO did a brake. The brake made a pretty reasonable difference in terms of damage. Plenty of youtube videos exposing this saw. "SawStop uses a different mechanism to drop the blade, but also employs an aluminum brake. In our testing on both top and front strikes, the blade stopped with less damage to my hand than Bosch’s Reaxx." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3JsUGwt_Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3JsUGwt_Mg
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  What is false? Did not Sawstop sue Bosch for patent infringement?
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    "Bosch came out with a superior design that doesn't use a brake at all, but were barred from selling it in the US because it infringed SawStop's patents." The design was not superior and the infringement was not based on a brake or lack of one. The infringement was because of copy of the skin contact sensing / blade drop technology as what were called underlying elements. I think the case may still be ongoing though? This one went a long while.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      I never said that the infringement was related to the brake. I thought I was pretty clear that the patents were about skin-sensing technology. And "not superior" is subjective. If the SawStop tech has enough false triggers and destroys as many blades as it apparently does based on what I've read (probably depends on material being cut), the increased cost almost certainly isn't worth it unless you're a high school shop class.
      - foerbert 5y ago
        I don't think that was clear. You mentioned the Bosch system had a patent issue and immediately mentioned it didn't even use a break. While it's possible to read that as the Bosch system being superior because it lacks a break, the main topic was the patent issue, so it's more natural to read it as being related to that. Meanwhile there wasn't even a mention of the sensing technology.

bsder 5y ago

> SawStop is or was trying to get the government to ban the sale of saws without flesh detection technology. Yeah, that's bad. When you resort to lobbying, you're no longer on the good side of the ledger.

slownews45 5y ago
Tell that to the kids whose hands are saved. https://www.swnewsmedia.com/shakopee_valley_news/news/education/these-saws-are-saving-one-finger-at-a-time-at-shakopee-west-middle-school/article_dc03d99b-e265-50b3-82e5-58aefa9398b5.html https://www.swnewsmedia.com/shakopee_valley_news/news/educat...
- bsder 5y ago
  We have a SawStop in our space for exactly that reason. However, I don't find forcing everyone to have it by law to be particularly palatable. I will tell you, however, that it goes off about once a month like clockwork and, as far as I can tell, it hasn't yet fired because someone was about to get injured (this is a good thing--it means our people aren't being stupid). It's a $100-$200 hit every single time it fires. So, we have an ongoing expense of about $1500 every year for SawStop. That's a new saw every year. Should that really be forced on people?
  - LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
    If it’s happening that frequently, and it’s not due to contact with flesh, then you’re cutting material that you shouldn’t be, or you should be disabling the protection feature.
    - bsder 5y ago
      > you’re cutting material that you shouldn’t be, or you should be disabling the protection feature. I will absolutely fight you on this tooth and nail. 1) I don't want anyone to get into the habit of turning off safety features. Ever. 2) If the material can be cut on that saw without the SawStop, it should be able to be cut with the SawStop. If it can't, the fault is with SawStop, not the user. I'm happy to pay the extra money for the extra safety. However, I will NOT allow you to blame the user for the fact that SawStop has not uncommon failure modes.
      - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
        Uhh - the manual will tell you not to cut aluminum, very wet wood etc with sawstop feature on. If you turn off feature you are back to your regular saw - hopefully you use a stick etc in all cases because as you note replacing cartridges is expensive. One thing I like, it'll put feature back on automatically for the next time machine gets turned on.
        bsder 5y ago
        The user's definition of "wet wood" and SawStop's often differ quite significantly. Hope you're keeping a moisture meter nearby. You also have to wait for the blade to come to a complete stop before touching anything or you will fire the system. This can be annoying when you have the motor turned off, retracted the blade, and start setting up your fence only to have the system fire because it wasn't quite stopped. Was there a sticker on something that was slightly metallic? Oops. I'm happy to have a SawStop on my saws, and I would even recommend it. However, given how often it false fires, I'm not sure I would mandate it by law.
        hellbannedguy 5y ago
        Every piece of wood at Home depot has a staple in it for the upc code.
        5y ago
  - dheera 5y ago
    I think it's completely reasonable to require it but also mandate that the health insurance companies pay for it, and all cartridge replacements. It's in their best interest to prevent accidents, and the cost is miniscule compared to even a single ER visit.
    - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
      Especially in SF bay area $18K for a bottle of milk for a baby etc (trauma activation fees are crazy).
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    Absolutely not - no where did I say that anyone should be forced to buy the saw. I was merely pointing out that saying you would never buy a sawstop for whatever crazy reason (ie, other companies wouldn't pay them the $3-$10 or whatever) seems a bit ridiculous. If you have a fair number of folks using the saw, have them touch materials to saw first with saw off to get a read on it or list the ones not recommended.
Bud 5y ago
Lobbying is simply the practice of petitioning the government to adopt a given policy. That's a foundation of democracy, really: the right to petition the government. I think you might want to re-examine your view a bit.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> Lobbying is simply the practice of petitioning the government to adopt a given policy. Adopting a policy is different from having them mandate what people buy. Hey, have people buy epipens and keep one at the school for each kid with allergies. Then later we will raise our prices 1000 percent. That's not influencing policy, its fucking people all the way to the bank - with government assistance.
- specialist 5y ago
  I've done some unpaid policy work. Defending democracy by advocating election integrity. No one is writing books about my mendacious activities. FANG has a phalanx of former electeds and staffers paid to hustle their former colleagues. To defend their grift and dismantle civil society. Grist for an endless torrent of outrage porn. While pendants will argue both me and FANG are "lobbying", petitioning our governments, our respective efforts hardly seem comparable.

slownews45 5y ago

This is actually totally false. Sawstop dropped blade below table. Bosch also dropped blade below table. So the invention was very fast acting sensing and then dropping blade. Sawstop added brake. Sawstop ALSO did a brake. The brake made a pretty reasonable difference in terms of damage. Plenty of youtube videos exposing this saw. "SawStop uses a different mechanism to drop the blade, but also employs an aluminum brake. In our testing on both top and front strikes, the blade stopped with less damage to my hand than Bosch’s Reaxx." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3JsUGwt_Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3JsUGwt_Mg

frosted-flakes 5y ago
What is false? Did not Sawstop sue Bosch for patent infringement?
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  "Bosch came out with a superior design that doesn't use a brake at all, but were barred from selling it in the US because it infringed SawStop's patents." The design was not superior and the infringement was not based on a brake or lack of one. The infringement was because of copy of the skin contact sensing / blade drop technology as what were called underlying elements. I think the case may still be ongoing though? This one went a long while.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    I never said that the infringement was related to the brake. I thought I was pretty clear that the patents were about skin-sensing technology. And "not superior" is subjective. If the SawStop tech has enough false triggers and destroys as many blades as it apparently does based on what I've read (probably depends on material being cut), the increased cost almost certainly isn't worth it unless you're a high school shop class.
    - foerbert 5y ago
      I don't think that was clear. You mentioned the Bosch system had a patent issue and immediately mentioned it didn't even use a break. While it's possible to read that as the Bosch system being superior because it lacks a break, the main topic was the patent issue, so it's more natural to read it as being related to that. Meanwhile there wasn't even a mention of the sensing technology.