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I'm really excited about the new PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) coming out of Asia. I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption

I'm really excited about the new PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) coming out of Asia. I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years). Electric still has the issue that you have to charge for like 40 minutes on a long road trip, which personally seems more frequent than I would like. It takes a 6 hr drive from LA to SF and makes it a 7 hr drive, that's quite material when you're trying to get from one place to another. The new Rav 4 Toyota Plug-in Hybrid is really amazing. 42 miles on electric, gas for the long road trips. It also is the fastest production Toyota (I think?). 42 miles is really a lot of miles for most daily commutes. In the near future we'll have electric chargers at most commuter destinations so that's really a 84 mile round trip which is hopefully enough for most daily commutes. I suspect as electric improves in general, PHEVs can also squeeze out more from their pure electric side. With all that being said, I'm still drawn to the Tesla as my next vehicle only to support Elon and his manic missions to improve humanity. But all things being equal, it's hard to ignore the superior build quality and convenience of the new Japanese PHEVs.

jobowoo 5y ago
With a Tesla it’s only 20 minutes to get 80% charge. It would be more than sufficient to do the LA to SF drive. I’d imagine most people would want to stop at least that long during the drive just to stretch their legs.
- kongolongo 5y ago
  It's still a logistical challenge in places without high charging accessibility though. That 20 minute charge might add another 20 minutes or even more depending on where it's located.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    Are you referring to lineups at the charger? Or having to deviate from your route due to charger location? I have heard stories and seen pictures of people waiting to charge in California, but I have never personally waited for a supercharger on my many road trips. The infrastructure needs to be built out to keep pace with EV adoption, but my understanding is the california problem is more about how long it takes to get building permits in the state than any lack of desire to add chargers. As for poor routing, the fastest chargers are rarely more than a few hundred meters from major routes. A couple times they have been more convenient than gas stations. The only charger I've been to that was more than 2-3 lights away from the highway is Owen Sound, Ontario, but that city is known as a travel black hole and doesn't have a ring road or fast way through.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      I understood the comment to be referring to requiring a detour for charging. That was also my reason for not buying a model 3. I put in some normal trips that I take, and while it was technically doable, it took me routes I usually avoided due to traffic, tolls, or sometimes weather conditions. I know my routes are niche (which is why the traffic is on the other road), but for me it just didn’t make sense yet.
      - theluketaylor 5y ago
        I tend to road trip in very unpopulated areas, so in my experience there isn’t much route choice. There is only 1 highway you could ever use. I also find the only times I’d bother with an alternate route are inside a single battery charge (either under 300 km or the start/end leg of the trip). Your use case is quite interesting. Got an example? The lack of waypoints in the Tesla navigation is their biggest missing piece of software currently. The navigation is extremely good about recalculating both the directions and charge plan as as you go even if you deviate from the suggested route. I sometimes cheat a little by navigating to a midway point. For example, I set Orangeville as the destination leaving Kitchener-Waterloo for Sudbury since I didn’t feel like going through Toronto.
        jandrewrogers 5y ago
        In the mountain West of the US, there are semi-frequent major highway closures due to weather conditions, serious accidents, etc. It is not uncommon for the shortest paved detour to add 120 km to your trip. That's not a big deal in an ICE vehicle, since every one-horse town near the detour route has a gas station. That fact has saved my bacon several times even with proper planning. People who live out there are accustomed to this reality. Adventurous people can sometimes find much shorter alternative routes using ranch/mining/forestry trails but those don't always exist and you definitely won't be driving your Tesla on those roads. The worst detour I've experienced in recent years was a serious accident in the middle-of-nowhere Utah, which closed the highway in both directions for almost 24 hours. The shortest paved detour around the accident added 150km of nothingness to the trip.
theluketaylor 5y ago
Charge speed is a lot faster than you think and getting better. Play with abetterrouteplanner.com where you can select the vehicle, conditions, and the route. People also conflate 5 minutes of refueling with 5 minute stops. EVs charge while you go the bathroom, stretch your legs, eat, and anything else you and you passengers might do while stopped. I find in practice if you're roadtripping with more then 1 other person it's basically impossible to go longer than 3 hour legs and stop for less than 15-20 minutes. That's puts you right in range where you spend less than 10 minutes waiting for the car for every 3 hours travelled. https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=80f2be62-b42e-4b52-b2ed-6f54d5767d77 https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=80f2be62-b42e-4b5...
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  > People also conflate 5 minutes of refueling with 5 minute stops. This is definitely something to emphasize. Because of the difference in the refueling too, gas refueling is by necessity a "serial" task: you need to watch the vehicle every minute of that refueling because it is a dangerous substance with bad edge case behaviors, including but not limited to accidental over-fills that at the very least are obnoxious for over-charging you (if not the immense physical danger it might put you and your vehicle in). EV charging is an easy parallel task: just like you don't have to watch your phone for every minute that you plug it in. You aren't wasting 15-20 minutes staring at a gallon counter and checking your car for leaks of explosive liquids. Obviously there are lots of unsafe drivers out there (and lots of us on our worst days where we feel such unsafety a calculated risk) that will risk it anyway and try to parallelize tasks while refueling with gasoline, but I know I have at least one story where that went wrong (a fuel line bust while buying snacks). Electricity is so much tamer in comparison.
simonw 5y ago
We got a Rav 4 plug-in a couple of months ago. It's fantastic - it sometimes gives us 45 miles entirely on battery, which means most of our trips don't use any gas at all. When we were looking at plug-in hybrid options nothing else even came close in terms of mileage, which I found really surprising. It was our top criteria when selecting a vehicle.
kube-system 5y ago
I’ve often heard people say about range/charging anxiety: “just use your electric car for your commute around town and for long trips keep your gasoline car or rent one” PHEVs do that all in the same car. Since much of the charging stations have been monopolized by Tesla in the US, I think PHEVs are the solution to infrastructure growing pains.
- jtaillon 5y ago
  Tesla has not "monopolized" charging stations in any reasonable understanding of the word. They spent somewhere south of $1B to built their own infrastructure. Any other company could have done that, but they chose to drag their heels instead. Even still, they could _still_ do that (and maybe EA will be that network). Electricity is pretty much everywhere, and there's definitely room for lots more long distance chargers. I don't understand how anyone could think what Tesla has done with it's supercharger network is a bad thing....
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Tesla does not let other vehicles charge at their stations, at least in the US. I don’t have this issue with any gasoline stations.
    - jtaillon 5y ago
      Should they? Why should one private company be forced to build infrastructure for other companies that are intentionally dragging their heels? GM doesn't run gas stations It would be great if they could be altruistic to let anyone use them, but altruism isn't really a good path to profits in our society
      - kube-system 5y ago
        Because electrical distribution infrastructure is a utility in every other case. Good on Tesla for building a solution, but their stations are monopolized, and this isn’t good for EV adoption overall. It’s good for Tesla.
_ph_ 5y ago
A Model S can do LA-SF without a stop. A Model 3 can do it with a very short recharge stop (20min). The new EQS should be able to do it very easy non stop. Are you really driving 6 hours without stopping for a drink and without any bio-break?
- 542458 5y ago
  One thing to add here is that huge nonstop marathon drives are generally unsafe - most all people can’t maintain alertness for that long. I have done the 7-hour hell drive in the past, but I probably would have been better off had I been forced to stop for ten or twenty minutes every two hours or so.
  - mft_ 5y ago
    This. Recently did an eight hour drive in a model 3. We stopped more frequently than the Tesla strictly required - once for a bathroom break and a quick coffee, once for food, and once for a more substantive charge. The nice thing was that by timing the shorter stops to also be at a supercharger, we did the electric equivalent of a ‘splash and dash’ - we got ~2 x 15minutes of charging time ‘free’ - as we’d stopped anyway, and the additional time spent to plug in is about 30 seconds. I suspect people who think that a Tesla would be substantively worse than an ICE car for long trips are either far edge-case car users… or are seriously underestimating them time they spend not driving during a long trip, and then compare that unrealistic best-case situation with the likely case for an EV.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
      I cope with long haul driving better than nearly anyone I know. I still find the gas stop every 3.5 hours or so essential. I get out of the car, walk around a bit, get something to drink and a snack to eat, and it makes a huge impact in how I feel and how alert I am. I have no problem doing 18 hour days multiple days in a row so long as I do this.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    It's far easier to stop at a rest stop and rotate the person behind the wheel (time, 20 seconds) than stop and refresh a driver.
tzs 5y ago
< I'm really excited about the new PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) coming out of Asia. I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years) OT: I have a question about PHEVs that I haven't been able to find a clear answer too. Maybe someone here knows. It is generally considered bad for an ICE car if you go too long without driving it [1]. That article says you should drive it for at least 10 minutes at highway speeds every two to three weeks. If I had a PHEV, I could easily go for months where I drive a few times a week, but always entirely for trips that can be done without using the ICE engine. That would prevent the problems mentioned in that article that aren't specific to the ICE engine, but the fuel and fluid problems could still be an issue. My question is do the PHEVs handle that automatically, such as by keeping track of ICE usage and automatically running the ICE engine occasionally on trips that could normally be done without it? Or is this something I'd be expected to keep track of, and say, skip plugging it in every now and then to force it to use the ICE engine? [1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-can-a-car-sit-without-being-driven https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-can-a-...
- rebuilder 5y ago
  The Chevy Volt (or Opel Ampera in my case, but same thing essentially) keeps track of fuel age somehow and will run the engine to burn fuel if it sits in the tank too long. The other points in that list don’t seem applicable.
- jsperx 5y ago
  Sounds like they do keep track and will invoke special modes if the gas is gonna go “stale”: https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/can-gasoline-go-bad-hybrids https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/can-gasoline-go-...
- natch 5y ago
  You really don’t need a PHEV in the US at least. Tesla charging options are so plentiful… I say this to people and they say “but Teslas are so expensive.” And then they end up buying an Audi or BMW, and when they later test drive a Tesla, they regret their decision.
api 5y ago
PHEVs could make a lot of sense in areas of the US like the Midwest and non-urban West where routine commutes are short (and thus mostly electric) but occasional road trips are common.
rsync 5y ago
"I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years)." I think you are correct - you just missed that the 10-15 years was 2010-2025. It has already happened. We are on the verge of a hockey stick of adoption of purely electric cars. The frustrating recalcitrance of incumbents (like Volvo and BMW) was their attempt to recoup billions in investments in the last 1-2 generations of vehicles - costs that had already been sunk. That is why after 10 years of concept cars and "e-initiatives" and weird tron-cars we finally have actual electric cars coming out of Audi/BMW/Volvo. They were just stalling...
- tshaddox 5y ago
  Is that the case? My impression is that PHEVs have been very rare in the last 10-15 years. Even now the selection seems very small. I’ve just started looking into them and it seem like the market is just barely getting up and running with some decent 2021-2022 models.
  - stubish 5y ago
    It depends on the region. Local news in Australia is on how lack of incentives for electric vehicles means there are very few models available. The cars are there, just sold elsewhere where the market is. Crank up your emissions standards or carbon requirements and the cheaper electric cars appear, with the old petrol models dumped in the backwaters.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    The market seems so small in 2021-2022 in fact because so many models have already been shut down. That to me is a strong indicator that the PHEV transition window is already closing and anyone thinking about it in 2022 is late to the party. GM has very explicitly stated that about the Volt, it's PHEV model that pretty much exactly met this transition window, starting in 2010 and being discontinued in 2019. GM concluded that the need for a transition vehicle was over and people were going to buy pure EVs moving forward. (Anecdotally, as a buyer that invested in a Volt in 2011, I feel the exact same way. The Volt was a wonderful choice for 2011 but in 2022 I see a lot fewer reasons you wouldn't just buy a full EV.)
zarkov99 5y ago
Tesla's Model S has a range of over 400 miles and it can recharge 180 miles in about 15 minutes. So this is mostly a solved problem, all that is left is pushing these specs down to more economical models. I would be surprised if in say 3 years we do not see comparable specs in Tesla's baseline models. Everybody else will lag a few more years, but they will get there as well.
- slaw 5y ago
  Tesla Model S has highway range of 320 miles on flat terrain with perfect weather. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-long-range-plus-highway-range-testing/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-lo...
  - zarkov99 5y ago
    According to the Tesla web page today the long range model has 405 miles EPA estimated range. Its possible that the article you posted is out of date.
    - slaw 5y ago
      EPA average speed test is 27.74MPH. Not very useful. https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
      - zarkov99 5y ago
        Isn't that for the city driving test? I am not sure which metric Tesla is using, highway or city, the website isn't clear, but at 30 MPH, on flat terrain and with the AC off, I would expect considerably more than 400 miles for their long range model.
        slaw 5y ago
        Tesla is using all 5 tests. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-f...
dheera 5y ago
I'm considering switching from my current car subscription (because they got bought out by Fair, and since then the service has turned to shit). Hybrids like that sound nice but I'm still eyeing Tesla because they are the only ones who have a reasonably autopilot system. Many others have lane keep systems that are designed to kill -- if you accidentally fall asleep at the wheel or become incapacitated, it will shut the lane keep system off and crash, instead of attempting to coming to a clean stop and putting on emergency flashers, which is what Tesla does.
jsperx 5y ago
With respect, I just don’t understand this use case. You focus on 42 miles as being a lot of range for most cases, but exclude the ~300mi range BEV because it’s… not enough? Less than 5% of daily trips are over 30mi [1]. One study found 70+ mi trips are barely 1% of journeys [2]. Also your example of LA-SF as an example of it being a real drag on time is instead perhaps the canonical best route, for Teslas at least. That’s the corridor between where they are manufactured and their largest market, SoCal. SuperChargers are plentiful, including the super fast 250 kW version that can do 1000mi/hr (when you are at low state of charge.) It also has in the PCH a beautiful view that you’ll want to stop and take in. So there’s no way you’ll actually spend an hour out of your way, but if you do, why would that single hour actually be material, when the trip is less than 1% of your journeys? Why pick a PHEV for your edge cases? Rent another car for that trip. Or take a flight (SF-LA fact: that’s also the busiest airline route in the country [3] by aircraft flown; second busiest by passengers moved) I get the whole “I probably won’t, but I like knowing I could” sense of spontaneity but it just seems a waste to have two separate propulsion systems and the associated complexity just for that. [1] https://nhts.ornl.gov/vehicle-trips https://nhts.ornl.gov/vehicle-trips [2] https://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis.php https://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis.php [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_routes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_ai...
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > With respect, I just don’t understand this use case. You focus on 42 miles as being a lot of range for most cases, but exclude the ~300mi range BEV because it’s… not enough? You can disagree, but it's a reasonable point Let's subdivide trips into A <42 mi, 42 mi < B < 150 mi and 150 mi < C. (These numbers assume no charging at the other end. We can tweak the actual numbers up by assuming charging at the other end.) We can ignore, for our analysis A. Those are 100% plug in. By your sources, 95-99% of trips are in the "A" column, depending on charging on the other side. So, you then ask "why is it material to stop for a supercharge on 1% of the trips". In this case, you kinda seem to have lost the thread. Why worry about your gas emissions if it's only 1% of the trips? Why advocate renting a second ICE car for a long trip instead of just having a single car where the switchover point to burning gas is just 250 miles shorter a trip? But really, it's how do you estimate B vs. C. If B is 99% of the combination, a pure EV may be best. If you think C is 99%, then a PHEV is best. In between, you have to make your choices. And those numbers can be highly personal. If you live 400 miles from the grandparents and (the other way) the city you like to visit for a weekend every month, it's clear you want a PHEV. If you those numbers are 100 miles, you probably don't.
jka 5y ago
> The new Rav 4 Toyota Plug-in Hybrid is really amazing. 42 miles on electric, gas for the long road trips. For comparison, the Nissan Leaf E+ is quoted[1] at a full-charge mileage range of 239 miles. > Electric still has the issue that you have to charge for like 40 minutes on a long road trip, which personally seems more frequent than I would like. Agreed, stopping often to charge can be a hassle, but if you only have to stop once from SF-LA (perhaps taking a break and having a bite to eat while away from the wheel), that'd seem fairly reasonable. Worth also noting apparent conflicting reports about the emissions claims made by PHEV manufacturers; see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54170207 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54170207 ("Plug-in hybrids are a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'") for two different points of view. [1] - https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/range-charging.html https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/range-ch...
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
40 miles is close to a sweet spot 99% EV daily driving range. The current 20-ish PHEVs aren't up to snuff. In the short run (5 years), I agree that PHEVs are the best use of the available battery materials supply if we want to get to low hanging fruit of 90% consumer trips are EV. Teslas are great and they absolutely should pursue the research on full-EV vehicles because that is the 10 year future. But how many PHEVs could be made out of a P-100's battery? 10? ... that is assuming the mainline autos hadn't been dragging their feet for 20 years putting a goddamn electric plug on their hybrids, and not pushing the technology. That Toyota so stringently resists even a plug in for their platforms in 2021 (for example, the new Toyota minivan is a hybrid with no option for a plug) is so mindboggling it must be intentional.
plater 5y ago
Having to charge for 40 minutes during a 6 hour trip is a non-issue in my opinion. During a 6 hour trip one has to eat at least one lunch/dinner which should account for 40 minutes. And likely an additional stop at a rest room or leg stretcher for 10 minutes somewhere else. Electrical charging stations will be everywhere, very soon ,very fast. All restaurants, gas stations and kiosks will have plenty. To attract customers and to earn an extra buck. It's very cheap to install compared to tanks and pumps for flammable and hazardous liquid fuels.

jobowoo 5y ago

With a Tesla it’s only 20 minutes to get 80% charge. It would be more than sufficient to do the LA to SF drive. I’d imagine most people would want to stop at least that long during the drive just to stretch their legs.

kongolongo 5y ago
It's still a logistical challenge in places without high charging accessibility though. That 20 minute charge might add another 20 minutes or even more depending on where it's located.
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  Are you referring to lineups at the charger? Or having to deviate from your route due to charger location? I have heard stories and seen pictures of people waiting to charge in California, but I have never personally waited for a supercharger on my many road trips. The infrastructure needs to be built out to keep pace with EV adoption, but my understanding is the california problem is more about how long it takes to get building permits in the state than any lack of desire to add chargers. As for poor routing, the fastest chargers are rarely more than a few hundred meters from major routes. A couple times they have been more convenient than gas stations. The only charger I've been to that was more than 2-3 lights away from the highway is Owen Sound, Ontario, but that city is known as a travel black hole and doesn't have a ring road or fast way through.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I understood the comment to be referring to requiring a detour for charging. That was also my reason for not buying a model 3. I put in some normal trips that I take, and while it was technically doable, it took me routes I usually avoided due to traffic, tolls, or sometimes weather conditions. I know my routes are niche (which is why the traffic is on the other road), but for me it just didn’t make sense yet.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      I tend to road trip in very unpopulated areas, so in my experience there isn’t much route choice. There is only 1 highway you could ever use. I also find the only times I’d bother with an alternate route are inside a single battery charge (either under 300 km or the start/end leg of the trip). Your use case is quite interesting. Got an example? The lack of waypoints in the Tesla navigation is their biggest missing piece of software currently. The navigation is extremely good about recalculating both the directions and charge plan as as you go even if you deviate from the suggested route. I sometimes cheat a little by navigating to a midway point. For example, I set Orangeville as the destination leaving Kitchener-Waterloo for Sudbury since I didn’t feel like going through Toronto.
      - jandrewrogers 5y ago
        In the mountain West of the US, there are semi-frequent major highway closures due to weather conditions, serious accidents, etc. It is not uncommon for the shortest paved detour to add 120 km to your trip. That's not a big deal in an ICE vehicle, since every one-horse town near the detour route has a gas station. That fact has saved my bacon several times even with proper planning. People who live out there are accustomed to this reality. Adventurous people can sometimes find much shorter alternative routes using ranch/mining/forestry trails but those don't always exist and you definitely won't be driving your Tesla on those roads. The worst detour I've experienced in recent years was a serious accident in the middle-of-nowhere Utah, which closed the highway in both directions for almost 24 hours. The shortest paved detour around the accident added 150km of nothingness to the trip.

theluketaylor 5y ago

Charge speed is a lot faster than you think and getting better. Play with abetterrouteplanner.com where you can select the vehicle, conditions, and the route. People also conflate 5 minutes of refueling with 5 minute stops. EVs charge while you go the bathroom, stretch your legs, eat, and anything else you and you passengers might do while stopped. I find in practice if you're roadtripping with more then 1 other person it's basically impossible to go longer than 3 hour legs and stop for less than 15-20 minutes. That's puts you right in range where you spend less than 10 minutes waiting for the car for every 3 hours travelled. https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=80f2be62-b42e-4b52-b2ed-6f54d5767d77 https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=80f2be62-b42e-4b5...

WorldMaker 5y ago
> People also conflate 5 minutes of refueling with 5 minute stops. This is definitely something to emphasize. Because of the difference in the refueling too, gas refueling is by necessity a "serial" task: you need to watch the vehicle every minute of that refueling because it is a dangerous substance with bad edge case behaviors, including but not limited to accidental over-fills that at the very least are obnoxious for over-charging you (if not the immense physical danger it might put you and your vehicle in). EV charging is an easy parallel task: just like you don't have to watch your phone for every minute that you plug it in. You aren't wasting 15-20 minutes staring at a gallon counter and checking your car for leaks of explosive liquids. Obviously there are lots of unsafe drivers out there (and lots of us on our worst days where we feel such unsafety a calculated risk) that will risk it anyway and try to parallelize tasks while refueling with gasoline, but I know I have at least one story where that went wrong (a fuel line bust while buying snacks). Electricity is so much tamer in comparison.

simonw 5y ago

We got a Rav 4 plug-in a couple of months ago. It's fantastic - it sometimes gives us 45 miles entirely on battery, which means most of our trips don't use any gas at all. When we were looking at plug-in hybrid options nothing else even came close in terms of mileage, which I found really surprising. It was our top criteria when selecting a vehicle.

kube-system 5y ago

I’ve often heard people say about range/charging anxiety: “just use your electric car for your commute around town and for long trips keep your gasoline car or rent one” PHEVs do that all in the same car. Since much of the charging stations have been monopolized by Tesla in the US, I think PHEVs are the solution to infrastructure growing pains.

jtaillon 5y ago
Tesla has not "monopolized" charging stations in any reasonable understanding of the word. They spent somewhere south of $1B to built their own infrastructure. Any other company could have done that, but they chose to drag their heels instead. Even still, they could _still_ do that (and maybe EA will be that network). Electricity is pretty much everywhere, and there's definitely room for lots more long distance chargers. I don't understand how anyone could think what Tesla has done with it's supercharger network is a bad thing....
- kube-system 5y ago
  Tesla does not let other vehicles charge at their stations, at least in the US. I don’t have this issue with any gasoline stations.
  - jtaillon 5y ago
    Should they? Why should one private company be forced to build infrastructure for other companies that are intentionally dragging their heels? GM doesn't run gas stations It would be great if they could be altruistic to let anyone use them, but altruism isn't really a good path to profits in our society
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Because electrical distribution infrastructure is a utility in every other case. Good on Tesla for building a solution, but their stations are monopolized, and this isn’t good for EV adoption overall. It’s good for Tesla.

_ph_ 5y ago

A Model S can do LA-SF without a stop. A Model 3 can do it with a very short recharge stop (20min). The new EQS should be able to do it very easy non stop. Are you really driving 6 hours without stopping for a drink and without any bio-break?

542458 5y ago
One thing to add here is that huge nonstop marathon drives are generally unsafe - most all people can’t maintain alertness for that long. I have done the 7-hour hell drive in the past, but I probably would have been better off had I been forced to stop for ten or twenty minutes every two hours or so.
- mft_ 5y ago
  This. Recently did an eight hour drive in a model 3. We stopped more frequently than the Tesla strictly required - once for a bathroom break and a quick coffee, once for food, and once for a more substantive charge. The nice thing was that by timing the shorter stops to also be at a supercharger, we did the electric equivalent of a ‘splash and dash’ - we got ~2 x 15minutes of charging time ‘free’ - as we’d stopped anyway, and the additional time spent to plug in is about 30 seconds. I suspect people who think that a Tesla would be substantively worse than an ICE car for long trips are either far edge-case car users… or are seriously underestimating them time they spend not driving during a long trip, and then compare that unrealistic best-case situation with the likely case for an EV.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
    I cope with long haul driving better than nearly anyone I know. I still find the gas stop every 3.5 hours or so essential. I get out of the car, walk around a bit, get something to drink and a snack to eat, and it makes a huge impact in how I feel and how alert I am. I have no problem doing 18 hour days multiple days in a row so long as I do this.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  It's far easier to stop at a rest stop and rotate the person behind the wheel (time, 20 seconds) than stop and refresh a driver.

tzs 5y ago

< I'm really excited about the new PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) coming out of Asia. I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years) OT: I have a question about PHEVs that I haven't been able to find a clear answer too. Maybe someone here knows. It is generally considered bad for an ICE car if you go too long without driving it [1]. That article says you should drive it for at least 10 minutes at highway speeds every two to three weeks. If I had a PHEV, I could easily go for months where I drive a few times a week, but always entirely for trips that can be done without using the ICE engine. That would prevent the problems mentioned in that article that aren't specific to the ICE engine, but the fuel and fluid problems could still be an issue. My question is do the PHEVs handle that automatically, such as by keeping track of ICE usage and automatically running the ICE engine occasionally on trips that could normally be done without it? Or is this something I'd be expected to keep track of, and say, skip plugging it in every now and then to force it to use the ICE engine? [1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-can-a-car-sit-without-being-driven https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-can-a-...

rebuilder 5y ago
The Chevy Volt (or Opel Ampera in my case, but same thing essentially) keeps track of fuel age somehow and will run the engine to burn fuel if it sits in the tank too long. The other points in that list don’t seem applicable.
jsperx 5y ago
Sounds like they do keep track and will invoke special modes if the gas is gonna go “stale”: https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/can-gasoline-go-bad-hybrids https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/can-gasoline-go-...
natch 5y ago
You really don’t need a PHEV in the US at least. Tesla charging options are so plentiful… I say this to people and they say “but Teslas are so expensive.” And then they end up buying an Audi or BMW, and when they later test drive a Tesla, they regret their decision.

api 5y ago

PHEVs could make a lot of sense in areas of the US like the Midwest and non-urban West where routine commutes are short (and thus mostly electric) but occasional road trips are common.

rsync 5y ago

"I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years)." I think you are correct - you just missed that the 10-15 years was 2010-2025. It has already happened. We are on the verge of a hockey stick of adoption of purely electric cars. The frustrating recalcitrance of incumbents (like Volvo and BMW) was their attempt to recoup billions in investments in the last 1-2 generations of vehicles - costs that had already been sunk. That is why after 10 years of concept cars and "e-initiatives" and weird tron-cars we finally have actual electric cars coming out of Audi/BMW/Volvo. They were just stalling...

tshaddox 5y ago
Is that the case? My impression is that PHEVs have been very rare in the last 10-15 years. Even now the selection seems very small. I’ve just started looking into them and it seem like the market is just barely getting up and running with some decent 2021-2022 models.
- stubish 5y ago
  It depends on the region. Local news in Australia is on how lack of incentives for electric vehicles means there are very few models available. The cars are there, just sold elsewhere where the market is. Crank up your emissions standards or carbon requirements and the cheaper electric cars appear, with the old petrol models dumped in the backwaters.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  The market seems so small in 2021-2022 in fact because so many models have already been shut down. That to me is a strong indicator that the PHEV transition window is already closing and anyone thinking about it in 2022 is late to the party. GM has very explicitly stated that about the Volt, it's PHEV model that pretty much exactly met this transition window, starting in 2010 and being discontinued in 2019. GM concluded that the need for a transition vehicle was over and people were going to buy pure EVs moving forward. (Anecdotally, as a buyer that invested in a Volt in 2011, I feel the exact same way. The Volt was a wonderful choice for 2011 but in 2022 I see a lot fewer reasons you wouldn't just buy a full EV.)

zarkov99 5y ago

Tesla's Model S has a range of over 400 miles and it can recharge 180 miles in about 15 minutes. So this is mostly a solved problem, all that is left is pushing these specs down to more economical models. I would be surprised if in say 3 years we do not see comparable specs in Tesla's baseline models. Everybody else will lag a few more years, but they will get there as well.

slaw 5y ago
Tesla Model S has highway range of 320 miles on flat terrain with perfect weather. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-long-range-plus-highway-range-testing/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-lo...
- zarkov99 5y ago
  According to the Tesla web page today the long range model has 405 miles EPA estimated range. Its possible that the article you posted is out of date.
  - slaw 5y ago
    EPA average speed test is 27.74MPH. Not very useful. https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
    - zarkov99 5y ago
      Isn't that for the city driving test? I am not sure which metric Tesla is using, highway or city, the website isn't clear, but at 30 MPH, on flat terrain and with the AC off, I would expect considerably more than 400 miles for their long range model.
      - slaw 5y ago
        Tesla is using all 5 tests. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-f...

dheera 5y ago

I'm considering switching from my current car subscription (because they got bought out by Fair, and since then the service has turned to shit). Hybrids like that sound nice but I'm still eyeing Tesla because they are the only ones who have a reasonably autopilot system. Many others have lane keep systems that are designed to kill -- if you accidentally fall asleep at the wheel or become incapacitated, it will shut the lane keep system off and crash, instead of attempting to coming to a clean stop and putting on emergency flashers, which is what Tesla does.

jsperx 5y ago

With respect, I just don’t understand this use case. You focus on 42 miles as being a lot of range for most cases, but exclude the ~300mi range BEV because it’s… not enough? Less than 5% of daily trips are over 30mi [1]. One study found 70+ mi trips are barely 1% of journeys [2]. Also your example of LA-SF as an example of it being a real drag on time is instead perhaps the canonical best route, for Teslas at least. That’s the corridor between where they are manufactured and their largest market, SoCal. SuperChargers are plentiful, including the super fast 250 kW version that can do 1000mi/hr (when you are at low state of charge.) It also has in the PCH a beautiful view that you’ll want to stop and take in. So there’s no way you’ll actually spend an hour out of your way, but if you do, why would that single hour actually be material, when the trip is less than 1% of your journeys? Why pick a PHEV for your edge cases? Rent another car for that trip. Or take a flight (SF-LA fact: that’s also the busiest airline route in the country [3] by aircraft flown; second busiest by passengers moved) I get the whole “I probably won’t, but I like knowing I could” sense of spontaneity but it just seems a waste to have two separate propulsion systems and the associated complexity just for that. [1] https://nhts.ornl.gov/vehicle-trips https://nhts.ornl.gov/vehicle-trips [2] https://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis.php https://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis.php [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_routes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_ai...

HWR_14 5y ago
> With respect, I just don’t understand this use case. You focus on 42 miles as being a lot of range for most cases, but exclude the ~300mi range BEV because it’s… not enough? You can disagree, but it's a reasonable point Let's subdivide trips into A <42 mi, 42 mi < B < 150 mi and 150 mi < C. (These numbers assume no charging at the other end. We can tweak the actual numbers up by assuming charging at the other end.) We can ignore, for our analysis A. Those are 100% plug in. By your sources, 95-99% of trips are in the "A" column, depending on charging on the other side. So, you then ask "why is it material to stop for a supercharge on 1% of the trips". In this case, you kinda seem to have lost the thread. Why worry about your gas emissions if it's only 1% of the trips? Why advocate renting a second ICE car for a long trip instead of just having a single car where the switchover point to burning gas is just 250 miles shorter a trip? But really, it's how do you estimate B vs. C. If B is 99% of the combination, a pure EV may be best. If you think C is 99%, then a PHEV is best. In between, you have to make your choices. And those numbers can be highly personal. If you live 400 miles from the grandparents and (the other way) the city you like to visit for a weekend every month, it's clear you want a PHEV. If you those numbers are 100 miles, you probably don't.

jka 5y ago

> The new Rav 4 Toyota Plug-in Hybrid is really amazing. 42 miles on electric, gas for the long road trips. For comparison, the Nissan Leaf E+ is quoted[1] at a full-charge mileage range of 239 miles. > Electric still has the issue that you have to charge for like 40 minutes on a long road trip, which personally seems more frequent than I would like. Agreed, stopping often to charge can be a hassle, but if you only have to stop once from SF-LA (perhaps taking a break and having a bite to eat while away from the wheel), that'd seem fairly reasonable. Worth also noting apparent conflicting reports about the emissions claims made by PHEV manufacturers; see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54170207 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54170207 ("Plug-in hybrids are a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'") for two different points of view. [1] - https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/range-charging.html https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/range-ch...

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

40 miles is close to a sweet spot 99% EV daily driving range. The current 20-ish PHEVs aren't up to snuff. In the short run (5 years), I agree that PHEVs are the best use of the available battery materials supply if we want to get to low hanging fruit of 90% consumer trips are EV. Teslas are great and they absolutely should pursue the research on full-EV vehicles because that is the 10 year future. But how many PHEVs could be made out of a P-100's battery? 10? ... that is assuming the mainline autos hadn't been dragging their feet for 20 years putting a goddamn electric plug on their hybrids, and not pushing the technology. That Toyota so stringently resists even a plug in for their platforms in 2021 (for example, the new Toyota minivan is a hybrid with no option for a plug) is so mindboggling it must be intentional.

plater 5y ago

Having to charge for 40 minutes during a 6 hour trip is a non-issue in my opinion. During a 6 hour trip one has to eat at least one lunch/dinner which should account for 40 minutes. And likely an additional stop at a rest room or leg stretcher for 10 minutes somewhere else. Electrical charging stations will be everywhere, very soon ,very fast. All restaurants, gas stations and kiosks will have plenty. To attract customers and to earn an extra buck. It's very cheap to install compared to tanks and pumps for flammable and hazardous liquid fuels.