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> You could stop buying iStuff on principle otherwise they'll just continue with this crap. I very much doubt losing a handful of sales from angry nerds will c

> You could stop buying iStuff on principle otherwise they'll just continue with this crap. I very much doubt losing a handful of sales from angry nerds will change that.

adriancr 5y ago
if that handful turns into a lot more they will care. Hearing normal folk asking "will I get in trouble for photos of my baby" kind of shows its not just a bunch of angry nerds. Angry nerds will just put gas on fire with simple "yes" answers.
- amelius 5y ago
  One problem is that there is a significant number of "nerds" who make money on Apple's platform. There's this quote: it's difficult to understand something if your salary depends on you not understanding it.
  - adriancr 5y ago
    True, so then me arguing here is pointless, thanks :)
- zepto 5y ago
  "will I get in trouble for photos of my baby" This is a reasonable question, and absolutely something people should wonder about. > simple "yes" answers. This is an outright lie. The only honest answer is no. Keep doing that and angry nerds will end up looking like tinfoil hat wearers and will lose any influence on future civil liberties.
  - adriancr 5y ago
    > This is an outright lie. The only honest answer is no. Are you sure about that?, I'm not... And all the news so far reinforces that oppinion... Getting falsely accused of something like this will ruin you even if in the end you win. Here's apple fucking up human review and destroying a teens life https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/29/apple_sis_lawsuit/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/29/apple_sis_lawsuit/ Imagine that with CSAM... Perceptual filter there seems pretty poor in terms of collision resistance
    - zepto 5y ago
      >> This is an outright lie. The only honest answer is no. > Are you sure about that?, Yes. > I'm not... And all the news so far reinforces that oppinion... There are no news articles that explain how anyone will be falsely accused for having pictures of their own baby. > Perceptual filter there seems pretty poor > in terms of collision resistance I don’t think you know anything about how poor the filter is. What is the false positive rate on randomly selected photos? The system is even resistant against intentionally created false positives. Here is the relevant paragraph from Apple’s documentation: “as an additional safeguard, the visual derivatives themselves are matched to the known CSAM database by a second, independent perceptual hash. This independent hash is chosen to reject the unlikely possi- bility that the match threshold was exceeded due to non-CSAM images that were ad- versarially perturbed to cause false NeuralHash matches against the on-device en- crypted CSAM database. If the CSAM finding is confirmed by this independent hash, the visual derivatives are provided to Apple human reviewers for final confirmation.” https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Security_Threat_Model_Review_of_Apple_Child_Safety_Features.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Security_Threat_Model... ...
      - adriancr 5y ago
        > There are no news articles that explain how anyone will be falsely accused for having pictures of their own baby. Umm... hash collisions that everyone keeps warning about is not enough?, all the discussions so far, I'll just go ahead and assume your comment here is in bad faith. > The system is even resistant against intentionally created false positives. Famous last words... Here's one of the top posts for reddit.com/r/apple https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/p930wu/i_wont_be_posting_any_more_preimages_against/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/p930wu/i_wont_be_pos... Here's a really high quality collision: https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issues/1#issuecomment-903094036 https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issu... Here's 2 totally different images off by a single BIT: https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issues/1#issuecomment-902470003 https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issu... Here's a dog and a kid colliding: https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issues/1#issuecomment-902977931 https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issu... It took a few days after extracting the model to show how flawed it is... Apple's only 'security' feature here was obscurity... It's so broken the person doing analysis above stopped as Apple will only change the hash function to include his pictures as training data instead of fixing the whole system. Are you still convinced? Having a second 'perceptual' hash doesn't really add much value... I'm not an expert, here's a better view on why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28243031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28243031 Also funniest bit from that on how broken it is "Finding a SHA1 collision took 22 years, and there are still no effective preimage attacks against it. Creating the NeuralHash collider took a single week."
skinkestek 5y ago
They will think twice when they realize the people who found them cool and did unpaid marketing for them doesn't anymore. There is also a massive backlash going on against them. It hit a major tech news outlet here in Norway and was linked from the biggest national newspaper just a few days after it became known, so I guess there will be multiple waves of backlash.
- Redoubts 5y ago
  This reminds me of the scene from the Simpsons, where Homer is yelling “you just lost yourself a customer” to Moe. But Moe can’t hear him over the cash register being continuously stuffed full of money. These “vote with your dollar” comments all have the same energy.
  - istingray 5y ago
    How do you suggest change happen then? Your comment may be interpreted as "sit down and shut up". Perhaps that's not your intent.

> You could stop buying iStuff on principle otherwise they'll just continue with this crap. I very much doubt losing a handful of sales from angry nerds will change that.

adriancr 5y ago

if that handful turns into a lot more they will care. Hearing normal folk asking "will I get in trouble for photos of my baby" kind of shows its not just a bunch of angry nerds. Angry nerds will just put gas on fire with simple "yes" answers.

amelius 5y ago
One problem is that there is a significant number of "nerds" who make money on Apple's platform. There's this quote: it's difficult to understand something if your salary depends on you not understanding it.
- adriancr 5y ago
  True, so then me arguing here is pointless, thanks :)
zepto 5y ago
"will I get in trouble for photos of my baby" This is a reasonable question, and absolutely something people should wonder about. > simple "yes" answers. This is an outright lie. The only honest answer is no. Keep doing that and angry nerds will end up looking like tinfoil hat wearers and will lose any influence on future civil liberties.
- adriancr 5y ago
  > This is an outright lie. The only honest answer is no. Are you sure about that?, I'm not... And all the news so far reinforces that oppinion... Getting falsely accused of something like this will ruin you even if in the end you win. Here's apple fucking up human review and destroying a teens life https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/29/apple_sis_lawsuit/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/29/apple_sis_lawsuit/ Imagine that with CSAM... Perceptual filter there seems pretty poor in terms of collision resistance
  - zepto 5y ago
    >> This is an outright lie. The only honest answer is no. > Are you sure about that?, Yes. > I'm not... And all the news so far reinforces that oppinion... There are no news articles that explain how anyone will be falsely accused for having pictures of their own baby. > Perceptual filter there seems pretty poor > in terms of collision resistance I don’t think you know anything about how poor the filter is. What is the false positive rate on randomly selected photos? The system is even resistant against intentionally created false positives. Here is the relevant paragraph from Apple’s documentation: “as an additional safeguard, the visual derivatives themselves are matched to the known CSAM database by a second, independent perceptual hash. This independent hash is chosen to reject the unlikely possi- bility that the match threshold was exceeded due to non-CSAM images that were ad- versarially perturbed to cause false NeuralHash matches against the on-device en- crypted CSAM database. If the CSAM finding is confirmed by this independent hash, the visual derivatives are provided to Apple human reviewers for final confirmation.” https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Security_Threat_Model_Review_of_Apple_Child_Safety_Features.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Security_Threat_Model... ...
    - adriancr 5y ago
      > There are no news articles that explain how anyone will be falsely accused for having pictures of their own baby. Umm... hash collisions that everyone keeps warning about is not enough?, all the discussions so far, I'll just go ahead and assume your comment here is in bad faith. > The system is even resistant against intentionally created false positives. Famous last words... Here's one of the top posts for reddit.com/r/apple https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/p930wu/i_wont_be_posting_any_more_preimages_against/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/p930wu/i_wont_be_pos... Here's a really high quality collision: https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issues/1#issuecomment-903094036 https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issu... Here's 2 totally different images off by a single BIT: https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issues/1#issuecomment-902470003 https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issu... Here's a dog and a kid colliding: https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issues/1#issuecomment-902977931 https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX//issu... It took a few days after extracting the model to show how flawed it is... Apple's only 'security' feature here was obscurity... It's so broken the person doing analysis above stopped as Apple will only change the hash function to include his pictures as training data instead of fixing the whole system. Are you still convinced? Having a second 'perceptual' hash doesn't really add much value... I'm not an expert, here's a better view on why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28243031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28243031 Also funniest bit from that on how broken it is "Finding a SHA1 collision took 22 years, and there are still no effective preimage attacks against it. Creating the NeuralHash collider took a single week."

skinkestek 5y ago

They will think twice when they realize the people who found them cool and did unpaid marketing for them doesn't anymore. There is also a massive backlash going on against them. It hit a major tech news outlet here in Norway and was linked from the biggest national newspaper just a few days after it became known, so I guess there will be multiple waves of backlash.

Redoubts 5y ago
This reminds me of the scene from the Simpsons, where Homer is yelling “you just lost yourself a customer” to Moe. But Moe can’t hear him over the cash register being continuously stuffed full of money. These “vote with your dollar” comments all have the same energy.
- istingray 5y ago
  How do you suggest change happen then? Your comment may be interpreted as "sit down and shut up". Perhaps that's not your intent.