7 ms·

Speaking for myself (as I am pretty healthy). My concern is not about dying as much as it is about developing long Covid and other not fully confirmed potential

by ub99 5y ago

Speaking for myself (as I am pretty healthy). My concern is not about dying as much as it is about developing long Covid and other not fully confirmed potential complications. Saying that, I think at this point in the US we should completely reopen and stop arguing about the measures. I am maximizing my chances of survival and staying healthy by getting vaccinated and wearing a mask. Many people don’t - and that’s their choice that is at this point we should not try to fight. The only thing we should accept is that unvaccinated Covid patients should have a lower priority in hospitals than patients with other conditions.

enkid 5y ago
Except there are multiple states out if ICU beds because they tried this. Every person in the hospital with COVID is another person who can't use that bed to get medical treatment.
- ub99 5y ago
  That’s what I meant in my last sentence. Unvaccinated Covid patients should have a lower priority. I haven’t heard of any hospitals trying that.
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    Deleted incorrect information, the decision was reversed.
    - ub99 5y ago
      That sounds like a good start. I hope more hospitals will follow this example. In general, I think it’s very unhealthy to attempt to take away people’s agency and treat them as children. Don’t want to get vaccinated? Your choice. But there are consequences of this choice and we should make this consequences clear. Other than that - let people do what they want to do.
      - eightysixfour 5y ago
        Looks like they reversed the decision: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north-texas-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds-doctors-can-consider-a-patients-vaccination-status/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north...
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    What about water rationing? https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declares-water-rationing-due-to-covid-outbreak-and-oxygen-demand-in-hospitals/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declare... You're healthy. What about immunocompromised people for whom the vaccines have only had a partial effect? https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunocompromised-people-make-up-nearly-half-of-covid-19-breakthrough-hospitalizations-an-extra-vaccine-dose-may-help-166241 https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunoc... Like it or not, we live in a society. Our decisions affect everyone else and we can't fully account for externalities. Solving these sorts of tragedies of the commons is exactly what public policy is meant to do. Personally, I think vaccine mandates need to happen yesterday. People who don't believe in the vaccines can suck it up. Facts don't care about their feelings.
    - ub99 5y ago
      Sorry do you live in the US? Do you really think a vaccine mandate is possible here? People will literally fight that with assault rifles. This situation is already tearing our society apart, there is no way any large scale mandatory vaccination project would succeed.
      - howinteresting 5y ago
        Yes, I live in the US. The way I think vaccine mandates can be done here is for every workplace, business and school to require them. Hopefully the upcoming approval of the Pfizer vaccine should unblock more of this.
        ub99 5y ago
        OK, let’s explore that. At what level do you think this would be enforced? Federal? Completely unenforceable unless you want to involve the military domestically. State level? Obviously half of the States are not going to do that. City level? Again, completely pointless. Also, many business owners are antivaxx, why would they participate in this?
  - paulddraper 5y ago
    Now do obesity.
- iammisc 5y ago
  Some states are out of ICU beds due to onerous restrictions on nursing supply, like vax mandates (my own state of Oregon for example)
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Without vaccination mandates you run the risk of an epidemic amongst nurses which can knock out 40% of your ICU beds at once. That's why nurses have to be vaccinated against dozens of illnesses.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      These nurses have been unvaccinated for more than a year while in proximity with those with COVID-19. Exactly when are 40% of the nurses going to be knocked out in this model?
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Nurses up until now practiced exceptionally higher restrictions to avoid this. But safety fatigue sets in and it won't work forever.
  - legobmw99 5y ago
    Can you find any source which suggests that vaccine mandates are the reason for the shortage of nurses in Oregon? The first 5 results on Google for “Oregon Nurse shortage”, which are mostly from April-May, list workplace stresses and at-risk family members as reasons for the exodus. Some articles are as old as December, which is before the vaccine was even available, let alone mandated
    - iammisc 5y ago
      This is a new policy brown is enacting against the wishes of the Nurses union. There is no data yet, I'm just extrapolating based on the fact that these new requirements will cause some nurses to quit rather than be vaccinated, which will directly reduce the number of ICU beds while not contributing meaningfully to the % vaccinated. If we are only to rely on already collected empirical data to make decisions or form opinions we would never be able to hold an opinion when it matters most... before
pessimizer 5y ago
And IMO it would be better the faster they all give it to each other. The longer it circulates between the non-vaccinated, who are interacting with the vaccinated, the likelier a variant arises that isn't affected by the vaccinations. We don't want vaccinated people constantly catching covid, even if right now the symptoms are mild or nil 99.9% of the time.
dTal 5y ago
When you're operating at the level of a government setting policy for an entire country, you're no longer in position to view the world in terms of "personal responsibility". People, as a mass, are a fairly deterministic blob. "Reopening" sends the message that the pandemic is over. If you want to reopen, you need to accept that this will - directly, as a result of your decision - lead to avoidable deaths. As for the other half of your proposition, I can see why it might seem appealingly logical - why should people who refused vaccination be entitled to medical care? - but I think it's ultimately inhumane. You don't know why they're not vaccinated. Maybe they weren't even offered it. Maybe they were in a disadvantaged life situation - there's a suspicious correlation between economic class and vaccination rate. Maybe they were prevented from getting it by oppressive relatives or partners. Maybe they were just being honestly cautious, and badly misjudged the relative risks. It's not fair to condemn people to death for those things.
- unearth3d 5y ago
  Wise response. I wouldn't be surprised if ~20% of any society/state/country is immune compromised in some way, most of those people work across their societies; letting covid run would force them to separate, and eventually end in poverty, this would weaken any society.
  - ub99 5y ago
    What do you expect to happen? 20% of the population will not get vaccinated and will wait for Covid to go away? This is also highly unlikely. Keeping the country closed and divided is adding a lot of stress to the stress we are already under due to the pandemic.
    - unearth3d 5y ago
      Just a case in point, some regions only have one vaccine type avy e.g. Australia with Astra, my wife would have serious problems with Astra, fortunately we have Pfizer in NZ, there are many many examples like this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
_red 5y ago
>punitive hospital policies Why not also put fat people + diabetics at lower priority? Why is someone killing themselves by being 350lbs and having high-fructose corn syrup blood somehow more forgivable than someone waiting for FDA approval?
- ub99 5y ago
  Are hospitals overwhelmed because of fat people in ICUs?
  - nradov 5y ago
    Yes hospitals in some areas are overwhelmed because of obese people in ICUs. The data clearly shows that obesity is a critical risk factor for ICU admission. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm
    - ub99 5y ago
      Well, I was responding to the comment about fat people in general, not obese Covid patients. I don’t think the obesity factor should be taken into account at all. Re your response: ICUs are overwhelmed because of Covid patients, not because of fat people with non-Covid conditions.
  - paulddraper 5y ago
    Is that...a serious question?
iammisc 5y ago
Do you worry about Lyme disease, Epstein Barr virus or lone star ticks too? How much time do you spend? Most Americans should be more worried about obesity and heart disease than long covid.
kodyo 5y ago
"My concern is not about dying as much as it is about developing long Covid and other not fully confirmed potential complications." You and most people who are skeptical about the coronavirus vaccines share the exact same concern. But it sounds like you want them to be institutionally deprioritized because of theirs.
- ub99 5y ago
  That’s not directly comparable. Antivaxx concern is not rooted in science or statistics. It’s rooted in conspiracy theories and anti-science. In a similar way you could argue that questioning the last election is the same as worrying about the destructive rise of far-right rhetoric because both are rooted in the concern for our society. And therefore we should not institutionally ignore those who doubt the legitimacy of the election. “Both sides” argument is not valid just because there are many people on both sides.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    With «antivaxx concern.... rooted in» are you talking about Pfizer/Moderna/OAZ/JnJ or are you talking in general? Because if you mean current concerns, and you have the «science and statistics» that debunk such concern, do provide it. Because a lot of hesitants are there, following anecdotal evidence in their close circle and more of post-vaccine damage¹, and data that does not allow for proper computation of risks², and, to say it all, a public rhetoric that does not help owing to oversimplification. Statistically, I only found data about passive monitoring - it may partially somehow set the minimum expected, but they are easily underestimations. Active monitoring, I have not found anything (I also had raised a thread here for the hunt, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28034269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28034269). But if you have the credible data, share it - do not assume it is out in the billboards. ¹(what the, in the past 24 hours alone I read on the papers of a local athlete hit with miocarditis, then in a phone call with a friend was told of an acquaintance of his with odd dire damages, and again I read on the papers of a second athlete with miocarditis. This is not aproblematic: this goes rightfully on the table of notions to be dealt with. And beyond the close circle and the credible sources, there are people who wrote around about having been hit by a meteorite a little after the inoculation - less reliable, but more consolidating the presence of the issue than not.) ²Not too many hours ago a divulgative article appeared here on the probability of long covid as "post 12 weeks symptoms": it mentioned three studies, publishing a conservative 2.3% chance, a well-considered 14%, and a broadly encompassing 40%. And one can compute risks reliably with this? And these generic "adverse events" did not even discriminate "nuisance vs impactive vs impairing"!

by ub99 5y ago

enkid 5y ago

Except there are multiple states out if ICU beds because they tried this. Every person in the hospital with COVID is another person who can't use that bed to get medical treatment.

ub99 5y ago
That’s what I meant in my last sentence. Unvaccinated Covid patients should have a lower priority. I haven’t heard of any hospitals trying that.
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  Deleted incorrect information, the decision was reversed.
  - ub99 5y ago
    That sounds like a good start. I hope more hospitals will follow this example. In general, I think it’s very unhealthy to attempt to take away people’s agency and treat them as children. Don’t want to get vaccinated? Your choice. But there are consequences of this choice and we should make this consequences clear. Other than that - let people do what they want to do.
    - eightysixfour 5y ago
      Looks like they reversed the decision: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north-texas-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds-doctors-can-consider-a-patients-vaccination-status/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north...
- howinteresting 5y ago
  What about water rationing? https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declares-water-rationing-due-to-covid-outbreak-and-oxygen-demand-in-hospitals/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/pledgetimes.com/orlando-declare... You're healthy. What about immunocompromised people for whom the vaccines have only had a partial effect? https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunocompromised-people-make-up-nearly-half-of-covid-19-breakthrough-hospitalizations-an-extra-vaccine-dose-may-help-166241 https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/immunoc... Like it or not, we live in a society. Our decisions affect everyone else and we can't fully account for externalities. Solving these sorts of tragedies of the commons is exactly what public policy is meant to do. Personally, I think vaccine mandates need to happen yesterday. People who don't believe in the vaccines can suck it up. Facts don't care about their feelings.
  - ub99 5y ago
    Sorry do you live in the US? Do you really think a vaccine mandate is possible here? People will literally fight that with assault rifles. This situation is already tearing our society apart, there is no way any large scale mandatory vaccination project would succeed.
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      Yes, I live in the US. The way I think vaccine mandates can be done here is for every workplace, business and school to require them. Hopefully the upcoming approval of the Pfizer vaccine should unblock more of this.
      - ub99 5y ago
        OK, let’s explore that. At what level do you think this would be enforced? Federal? Completely unenforceable unless you want to involve the military domestically. State level? Obviously half of the States are not going to do that. City level? Again, completely pointless. Also, many business owners are antivaxx, why would they participate in this?
- paulddraper 5y ago
  Now do obesity.
iammisc 5y ago
Some states are out of ICU beds due to onerous restrictions on nursing supply, like vax mandates (my own state of Oregon for example)
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Without vaccination mandates you run the risk of an epidemic amongst nurses which can knock out 40% of your ICU beds at once. That's why nurses have to be vaccinated against dozens of illnesses.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    These nurses have been unvaccinated for more than a year while in proximity with those with COVID-19. Exactly when are 40% of the nurses going to be knocked out in this model?
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Nurses up until now practiced exceptionally higher restrictions to avoid this. But safety fatigue sets in and it won't work forever.
- legobmw99 5y ago
  Can you find any source which suggests that vaccine mandates are the reason for the shortage of nurses in Oregon? The first 5 results on Google for “Oregon Nurse shortage”, which are mostly from April-May, list workplace stresses and at-risk family members as reasons for the exodus. Some articles are as old as December, which is before the vaccine was even available, let alone mandated
  - iammisc 5y ago
    This is a new policy brown is enacting against the wishes of the Nurses union. There is no data yet, I'm just extrapolating based on the fact that these new requirements will cause some nurses to quit rather than be vaccinated, which will directly reduce the number of ICU beds while not contributing meaningfully to the % vaccinated. If we are only to rely on already collected empirical data to make decisions or form opinions we would never be able to hold an opinion when it matters most... before

pessimizer 5y ago

And IMO it would be better the faster they all give it to each other. The longer it circulates between the non-vaccinated, who are interacting with the vaccinated, the likelier a variant arises that isn't affected by the vaccinations. We don't want vaccinated people constantly catching covid, even if right now the symptoms are mild or nil 99.9% of the time.

dTal 5y ago

When you're operating at the level of a government setting policy for an entire country, you're no longer in position to view the world in terms of "personal responsibility". People, as a mass, are a fairly deterministic blob. "Reopening" sends the message that the pandemic is over. If you want to reopen, you need to accept that this will - directly, as a result of your decision - lead to avoidable deaths. As for the other half of your proposition, I can see why it might seem appealingly logical - why should people who refused vaccination be entitled to medical care? - but I think it's ultimately inhumane. You don't know why they're not vaccinated. Maybe they weren't even offered it. Maybe they were in a disadvantaged life situation - there's a suspicious correlation between economic class and vaccination rate. Maybe they were prevented from getting it by oppressive relatives or partners. Maybe they were just being honestly cautious, and badly misjudged the relative risks. It's not fair to condemn people to death for those things.

unearth3d 5y ago
Wise response. I wouldn't be surprised if ~20% of any society/state/country is immune compromised in some way, most of those people work across their societies; letting covid run would force them to separate, and eventually end in poverty, this would weaken any society.
- ub99 5y ago
  What do you expect to happen? 20% of the population will not get vaccinated and will wait for Covid to go away? This is also highly unlikely. Keeping the country closed and divided is adding a lot of stress to the stress we are already under due to the pandemic.
  - unearth3d 5y ago
    Just a case in point, some regions only have one vaccine type avy e.g. Australia with Astra, my wife would have serious problems with Astra, fortunately we have Pfizer in NZ, there are many many examples like this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

_red 5y ago

>punitive hospital policies Why not also put fat people + diabetics at lower priority? Why is someone killing themselves by being 350lbs and having high-fructose corn syrup blood somehow more forgivable than someone waiting for FDA approval?

ub99 5y ago
Are hospitals overwhelmed because of fat people in ICUs?
- nradov 5y ago
  Yes hospitals in some areas are overwhelmed because of obese people in ICUs. The data clearly shows that obesity is a critical risk factor for ICU admission. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm
  - ub99 5y ago
    Well, I was responding to the comment about fat people in general, not obese Covid patients. I don’t think the obesity factor should be taken into account at all. Re your response: ICUs are overwhelmed because of Covid patients, not because of fat people with non-Covid conditions.
- paulddraper 5y ago
  Is that...a serious question?

iammisc 5y ago

Do you worry about Lyme disease, Epstein Barr virus or lone star ticks too? How much time do you spend? Most Americans should be more worried about obesity and heart disease than long covid.

kodyo 5y ago

"My concern is not about dying as much as it is about developing long Covid and other not fully confirmed potential complications." You and most people who are skeptical about the coronavirus vaccines share the exact same concern. But it sounds like you want them to be institutionally deprioritized because of theirs.

ub99 5y ago
That’s not directly comparable. Antivaxx concern is not rooted in science or statistics. It’s rooted in conspiracy theories and anti-science. In a similar way you could argue that questioning the last election is the same as worrying about the destructive rise of far-right rhetoric because both are rooted in the concern for our society. And therefore we should not institutionally ignore those who doubt the legitimacy of the election. “Both sides” argument is not valid just because there are many people on both sides.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  With «antivaxx concern.... rooted in» are you talking about Pfizer/Moderna/OAZ/JnJ or are you talking in general? Because if you mean current concerns, and you have the «science and statistics» that debunk such concern, do provide it. Because a lot of hesitants are there, following anecdotal evidence in their close circle and more of post-vaccine damage¹, and data that does not allow for proper computation of risks², and, to say it all, a public rhetoric that does not help owing to oversimplification. Statistically, I only found data about passive monitoring - it may partially somehow set the minimum expected, but they are easily underestimations. Active monitoring, I have not found anything (I also had raised a thread here for the hunt, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28034269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28034269). But if you have the credible data, share it - do not assume it is out in the billboards. ¹(what the, in the past 24 hours alone I read on the papers of a local athlete hit with miocarditis, then in a phone call with a friend was told of an acquaintance of his with odd dire damages, and again I read on the papers of a second athlete with miocarditis. This is not aproblematic: this goes rightfully on the table of notions to be dealt with. And beyond the close circle and the credible sources, there are people who wrote around about having been hit by a meteorite a little after the inoculation - less reliable, but more consolidating the presence of the issue than not.) ²Not too many hours ago a divulgative article appeared here on the probability of long covid as "post 12 weeks symptoms": it mentioned three studies, publishing a conservative 2.3% chance, a well-considered 14%, and a broadly encompassing 40%. And one can compute risks reliably with this? And these generic "adverse events" did not even discriminate "nuisance vs impactive vs impairing"!