5 ms·

I feel list this story keeps on showing up on HN. Does anyone have a link to previous discussion on this topic? Might help avoid endless re-hashes of the same

I feel list this story keeps on showing up on HN. Does anyone have a link to previous discussion on this topic? Might help avoid endless re-hashes of the same arguments and misinformation.

wskinner 5y ago
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=false&query=apple%20csam&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=fa...
- slownews45 5y ago
  Wow - 11 stories with tons of upvotes (lots more with fewer). A fair number are other "open letters" as well. Helpful.
systemvoltage 5y ago
I've come to abhor the term `misinformation`, I know your intent but Twitter/FB has been using it in nafarious ways. Anytime I hear it, it triggers censorship related thoughts for me.
- slownews45 5y ago
  I agree! It's been misused to mean things someone doesn't agree with too often :) In this case we have been gettings tons of claims that what apple doing will see them charged with child porn felonies etc with almost no foundation. We've also had lots of claims based on a failure to actually read about what apple is doing (ie, will scan all content not just that scheduled for upload to icloud etc).
  - zepto 5y ago
    Sure, but as someone who agrees with you, I’m not sure we can call that ‘misinformation’. It’s just poor understanding and bad arguments. I have seen a little misinformation relating to this subject - direct lies, fake news, fake links etc, but a negligible amount.
    - slownews45 5y ago
      All good points. Yeah, we should stop using the term I think given it's lost a lot of its meaning. But a fair bit of the discussion of this topic has been badly misinformed.
      - zepto 5y ago
        I agree, but that is a feature of this particular problem. For example, I see a lot of people who are simply wrong about how the hash matching works. One way to be wrong is to think it’s a cryptographic hash. Another way to be wrong is to think it’s just a perceptual hash match. The problem is that these are both not crazy. The actual solution is far more complex and non-obvious than most people would suspect. I think this is a genuine problem with the system. It is hard for almost anyone to imagine how it could be trustworthy.
        slownews45 5y ago
        Apple have been pretty clear that a human will review things. That is (I hope) a feature of any system that leads to child porn charges. If not it should be - AI gets things wrong and can be tricked (as can humans but in different ways usually). But agreed, the technical bits may not be obvious (though apple released I thought a pretty darn complete paper on how it all works).
        zepto 5y ago
        Sure - but who wants a human reviewing their private photos? I don’t. Unless you understand the technical bits you have know way of knowing how rarely this is likely to happen in practice.
        slownews45 5y ago
        Not me, but if they only review after a flag, that's best you can do I think? facebook works this way too. Users flag photos and someone looks and deals with them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dessant 5y ago
This is a new development, please don't try to suppress news.
- slownews45 5y ago
  I'm not trying to suppress news. There have been a ton of letters, calls to action, complaints and outrage about apple's actions. Many of the conversations are HIGHLY repetitive. I would strongly urge folks to review past discussions before re-hashing things (again) or focus on new elements. And these headlines "Global Coalition"? I hope folks realize there is also a "global coalition" of governments that are working to do much more to get access to your information. Australia, China, the EU (yes, go on about GDPR but actual privacy - forget about it), UK etc. There may also be a "global coalition" of users who like apple's products. A better headline is EFF writes open letter with 90 other civil liberties groups to Tim Cook? Edited to list prior topics on HN about this: Apple's plan to “think different” about encryption opens a backdoor to your life EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-diff... 2260 points|bbatsell|16 days ago|824 comments Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-will-come-apple-has-opened-backdoor-increased-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-w... 618 points|taxyovio|10 days ago|303 comments Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones EFF: https://act.eff.org/action/tell-apple-don-t-scan-our-phones https://act.eff.org/action/tell-apple-don-t-scan-our-phones 161 points|sunrise54|4 days ago|30 comments Is EFF opposition really new news? I've also noticed this weird forumulation more often. "Please stop xxxx" rather than an actual discussion of a topic. Ironic to try and suppress a conversation by claiming someone elses comments are suppression?
  - jdjd6 5y ago
    Please don't point out that using the word "please" someone can pseudo politely insinuate that their opinion is correct and anything you say is wrong.
  - stingraycharles 5y ago
rootusrootus 5y ago
You can't stop it. Once a topic becomes popular on HN, any plausibly related submission will instantly garner enough upvotes to put it on the front page. Eventually it will fade somewhat. Same thing happens with Boeing-related topics, for example.

I feel list this story keeps on showing up on HN. Does anyone have a link to previous discussion on this topic? Might help avoid endless re-hashes of the same arguments and misinformation.

wskinner 5y ago

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=false&query=apple%20csam&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=fa...

slownews45 5y ago
Wow - 11 stories with tons of upvotes (lots more with fewer). A fair number are other "open letters" as well. Helpful.

systemvoltage 5y ago

I've come to abhor the term `misinformation`, I know your intent but Twitter/FB has been using it in nafarious ways. Anytime I hear it, it triggers censorship related thoughts for me.

slownews45 5y ago
I agree! It's been misused to mean things someone doesn't agree with too often :) In this case we have been gettings tons of claims that what apple doing will see them charged with child porn felonies etc with almost no foundation. We've also had lots of claims based on a failure to actually read about what apple is doing (ie, will scan all content not just that scheduled for upload to icloud etc).
- zepto 5y ago
  Sure, but as someone who agrees with you, I’m not sure we can call that ‘misinformation’. It’s just poor understanding and bad arguments. I have seen a little misinformation relating to this subject - direct lies, fake news, fake links etc, but a negligible amount.
  - slownews45 5y ago
    All good points. Yeah, we should stop using the term I think given it's lost a lot of its meaning. But a fair bit of the discussion of this topic has been badly misinformed.
    - zepto 5y ago
      I agree, but that is a feature of this particular problem. For example, I see a lot of people who are simply wrong about how the hash matching works. One way to be wrong is to think it’s a cryptographic hash. Another way to be wrong is to think it’s just a perceptual hash match. The problem is that these are both not crazy. The actual solution is far more complex and non-obvious than most people would suspect. I think this is a genuine problem with the system. It is hard for almost anyone to imagine how it could be trustworthy.
      - slownews45 5y ago
        Apple have been pretty clear that a human will review things. That is (I hope) a feature of any system that leads to child porn charges. If not it should be - AI gets things wrong and can be tricked (as can humans but in different ways usually). But agreed, the technical bits may not be obvious (though apple released I thought a pretty darn complete paper on how it all works).
        zepto 5y ago
        Sure - but who wants a human reviewing their private photos? I don’t. Unless you understand the technical bits you have know way of knowing how rarely this is likely to happen in practice.
        slownews45 5y ago
        Not me, but if they only review after a flag, that's best you can do I think? facebook works this way too. Users flag photos and someone looks and deals with them.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dessant 5y ago

This is a new development, please don't try to suppress news.

slownews45 5y ago
I'm not trying to suppress news. There have been a ton of letters, calls to action, complaints and outrage about apple's actions. Many of the conversations are HIGHLY repetitive. I would strongly urge folks to review past discussions before re-hashing things (again) or focus on new elements. And these headlines "Global Coalition"? I hope folks realize there is also a "global coalition" of governments that are working to do much more to get access to your information. Australia, China, the EU (yes, go on about GDPR but actual privacy - forget about it), UK etc. There may also be a "global coalition" of users who like apple's products. A better headline is EFF writes open letter with 90 other civil liberties groups to Tim Cook? Edited to list prior topics on HN about this: Apple's plan to “think different” about encryption opens a backdoor to your life EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-diff... 2260 points|bbatsell|16 days ago|824 comments Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-will-come-apple-has-opened-backdoor-increased-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-w... 618 points|taxyovio|10 days ago|303 comments Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones EFF: https://act.eff.org/action/tell-apple-don-t-scan-our-phones https://act.eff.org/action/tell-apple-don-t-scan-our-phones 161 points|sunrise54|4 days ago|30 comments Is EFF opposition really new news? I've also noticed this weird forumulation more often. "Please stop xxxx" rather than an actual discussion of a topic. Ironic to try and suppress a conversation by claiming someone elses comments are suppression?
- jdjd6 5y ago
  Please don't point out that using the word "please" someone can pseudo politely insinuate that their opinion is correct and anything you say is wrong.
- stingraycharles 5y ago

rootusrootus 5y ago

You can't stop it. Once a topic becomes popular on HN, any plausibly related submission will instantly garner enough upvotes to put it on the front page. Eventually it will fade somewhat. Same thing happens with Boeing-related topics, for example.