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I find the vilification of Gordon Ramsey misguided. He is the nicest man in the kitchen (not to mention the world's top TV chef at the moment). Look how tenderl

I find the vilification of Gordon Ramsey misguided. He is the nicest man in the kitchen (not to mention the world's top TV chef at the moment). Look how tenderly and patiently he acts with his own children in the kitchen segments where they appear. If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich, yeah, he does what needs to be done, but he is never wantonly or arbitrarily abusive, and it makes satisfying watching to boot!

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich, yeah, he does what needs to be done, but he is never wantonly or arbitrarily abusive, and it makes satisfying watching to boot! I am so very sick of this false rationalization. There is nothing about having high standards that requires abusive behavior to enforce them. That is straight up bullshit. Ramsey is indeed playing up the abuse for the sake of attracting viewers, however it's not purely an act. He was trained under Marco Pierre White, arguably the first modern celebrity chef, who was infamous for straight up violence in his kitchens. Kitchens are dangerous enough. There is zero excuse for throwing pots at peoples heads or starting straight up fist fights. Listen to people who've worked in Ramsey's restaurants and it's clear the example he sets results in abusive behavior top to bottom. By way of contrast, there's a Canadian chef named Laura Caulder that was traditionally trained by someone very high up in the French culinary world. She had a show for a number of years on Canadian tv, including a special episode where she went back to her alma mater to help out with a very high profile dinner (think ambassadors and royals sort of thing). Her mentor was fascinating to watch, because she was completely unyielding on holding the very highest standards, but without a shred of abusive behavior. She simply stated things as they were, demanded better, and that was that. There's nothing about Ramsey's antics that are necessary for achieving greatness, and it's depressing that people find abusive behavior satisfying to watch.
rafale 5y ago
>> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich... They are still human beings that should be treated with dignity.
- zpeti 5y ago
  There is something about the vocal rejection of mediocrity and bad work that creates some great things. It also attracts young naive geniuses who want to be abused but create greatness. I’ve seen the same in the contemporary art world. From Gordon Ramsey to Steve Jobs to the film whiplash. People who are very vocal about wanting the best can get it. And don’t forget. Literally anyone who decides to work with Gordon Ramsey or Steve Jobs knows what they are like. They did it willingly. They aren’t abusing random innocent souls. They are expecting the best from people who decided to work with them.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    The pyramids were built with slave labor, but that's hardly an argument for slavery.
    - MichaelGroves 5y ago
      I believe this is now generally regarded as a misconception, since there are records of the workers being paid. However it can be difficult to tease out the true nature of this work in the historic context, since the way such workers would be paid at the time would likely look like slavery in the modern context (e.g. being paid in grain.) There is also the orthogonal matter of paid/unpaid work, vs forced/unforced work; somebody who is forced to work but is also paid may still be considered a slave.
      - JasonFruit 5y ago
        Those are worthwhile caveats. The reasoning of my point still stands, even if I'm factually in error.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    To this day, the movie Whiplash is one of the greatest illustrations of how a demanding mentor can produce tremendous results.
foepys 5y ago
The difference between the UK and the US version of Kitchen Nightmares is extreme. The US cut puts so much emphasis on aggression that there isn't room for anything else.
- natdempk 5y ago
  Yep, strongly agree with this take. All of the yelling and aggression is an act for US television if you watch other programs he's been in. Another thing based on UK Kitchen Nightmares is you really only see the hostile side come out when he's put into a situation where the other person is hostile. If the person genuinely wants to learn and try to save their business, he's nothing but helpful. There are episodes of the UK show where they're basically just wholesome all around.
  - Complexicate 5y ago
    Wow! You're not kidding. I just did a quick search and found this [1] It's the exact same 1 minute scene from UK and US. The UK is constructive criticism and wholesome banter. The US version cuts the playful banter as if he's just being mean, adds music and a narrator of doom, cuts his concern about her going home to her daughter, and her "very good day" quote is way out of context. [1] https://youtu.be/RFVLPcTWfBk https://youtu.be/RFVLPcTWfBk
    - ahahahahah 5y ago
      Too bad the clip is fake.
IshKebab 5y ago
So it's ok to abuse people if they perform poorly or make stupid mistakes?
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  It disheartens me that you were downvoted for this reasonable question!
analog31 5y ago
Being able to turn the violence on and off like a switch is a feature of an abusive boss. Still, without knowing for sure, I've always assumed that the outbursts are staged, if not rehearsed. I can't deny that it's entertaining, like reality cop shows. A lot of drama is about worlds that I wouldn't choose to live in.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  Yes, the Gordon Ramsay you see on TV is definitely a made-for-TV character.
mikestew 5y ago
He’s not abusive to his own children? What a saint he must be. “Dealing with an idiot sandwich” is precisely the differentiation between nice person and asshole. “Dealing with an idiot sandwich” is also victim-blaming. The idiot sandwich might also argue “idiot boss who can’t articulate what he wants”.
ggambetta 5y ago
Ramsey is also a lot more abusive in the shows produced in the US, compared to the UK ones. The man is acting for a specific audience.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  That, or he just doesn't like Americans...
spoonjim 5y ago
That is exactly... abuse. Abusive bosses can be nice to their kids. Abusive bosses can be nice to their employees. Abusive bosses can even be nice to "idiot sandwiches." What makes an abusive boss is how they are at their worst: a professional boss will act with composure, either trying to help the worker become better or firing them professionally if they need to go.
jwilber 5y ago
Would love reading a paper discussing the process leading to people publicly advocating for people they’ve never met. Great PR machines, media.
wutbrodo 5y ago
what an incredibly bizarre comment. "I don't know how anyone can see Ramsay as abusive. He's a super nice guy who only abuses idiots who deserve it". What definition of abusiveness _doesn't_ include targeting only "those who deserve it", as defined by the abuser?
indymike 5y ago
I disagree with this. Calling names and yelling and screaming is a lot less efficient than a quiet "This isn't right. How can we not have this happen again?" I say this as a guy who learned to lead in the Navy, and discovered that, when I yelled and grandstanded, it was all about my ego and not about getting things done and done right. I will say that assholes in high pressure situations are entertaining to watch on TV, but absolutely not that effective (the idiot sandwich will quit and piss in the soup on the way out) in real life.
Mikeb85 5y ago
While I'm not sure about your take, as someone with some links to the world of ultra-high end dining, Gordon Ramsey's persona is definitely made for TV. He worked for the chef whose persona he copies on TV (Marco Pierre White) but I've heard that he's much more pleasant in his own restaurants. That being said, the glorification of such personas is troubling and a problem for the restaurant industry.

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago

> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich, yeah, he does what needs to be done, but he is never wantonly or arbitrarily abusive, and it makes satisfying watching to boot! I am so very sick of this false rationalization. There is nothing about having high standards that requires abusive behavior to enforce them. That is straight up bullshit. Ramsey is indeed playing up the abuse for the sake of attracting viewers, however it's not purely an act. He was trained under Marco Pierre White, arguably the first modern celebrity chef, who was infamous for straight up violence in his kitchens. Kitchens are dangerous enough. There is zero excuse for throwing pots at peoples heads or starting straight up fist fights. Listen to people who've worked in Ramsey's restaurants and it's clear the example he sets results in abusive behavior top to bottom. By way of contrast, there's a Canadian chef named Laura Caulder that was traditionally trained by someone very high up in the French culinary world. She had a show for a number of years on Canadian tv, including a special episode where she went back to her alma mater to help out with a very high profile dinner (think ambassadors and royals sort of thing). Her mentor was fascinating to watch, because she was completely unyielding on holding the very highest standards, but without a shred of abusive behavior. She simply stated things as they were, demanded better, and that was that. There's nothing about Ramsey's antics that are necessary for achieving greatness, and it's depressing that people find abusive behavior satisfying to watch.

rafale 5y ago

>> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich... They are still human beings that should be treated with dignity.

zpeti 5y ago
There is something about the vocal rejection of mediocrity and bad work that creates some great things. It also attracts young naive geniuses who want to be abused but create greatness. I’ve seen the same in the contemporary art world. From Gordon Ramsey to Steve Jobs to the film whiplash. People who are very vocal about wanting the best can get it. And don’t forget. Literally anyone who decides to work with Gordon Ramsey or Steve Jobs knows what they are like. They did it willingly. They aren’t abusing random innocent souls. They are expecting the best from people who decided to work with them.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  The pyramids were built with slave labor, but that's hardly an argument for slavery.
  - MichaelGroves 5y ago
    I believe this is now generally regarded as a misconception, since there are records of the workers being paid. However it can be difficult to tease out the true nature of this work in the historic context, since the way such workers would be paid at the time would likely look like slavery in the modern context (e.g. being paid in grain.) There is also the orthogonal matter of paid/unpaid work, vs forced/unforced work; somebody who is forced to work but is also paid may still be considered a slave.
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      Those are worthwhile caveats. The reasoning of my point still stands, even if I'm factually in error.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  To this day, the movie Whiplash is one of the greatest illustrations of how a demanding mentor can produce tremendous results.

foepys 5y ago

The difference between the UK and the US version of Kitchen Nightmares is extreme. The US cut puts so much emphasis on aggression that there isn't room for anything else.

natdempk 5y ago
Yep, strongly agree with this take. All of the yelling and aggression is an act for US television if you watch other programs he's been in. Another thing based on UK Kitchen Nightmares is you really only see the hostile side come out when he's put into a situation where the other person is hostile. If the person genuinely wants to learn and try to save their business, he's nothing but helpful. There are episodes of the UK show where they're basically just wholesome all around.
- Complexicate 5y ago
  Wow! You're not kidding. I just did a quick search and found this [1] It's the exact same 1 minute scene from UK and US. The UK is constructive criticism and wholesome banter. The US version cuts the playful banter as if he's just being mean, adds music and a narrator of doom, cuts his concern about her going home to her daughter, and her "very good day" quote is way out of context. [1] https://youtu.be/RFVLPcTWfBk https://youtu.be/RFVLPcTWfBk
  - ahahahahah 5y ago
    Too bad the clip is fake.

IshKebab 5y ago

So it's ok to abuse people if they perform poorly or make stupid mistakes?

tailspin2019 5y ago
It disheartens me that you were downvoted for this reasonable question!

analog31 5y ago

Being able to turn the violence on and off like a switch is a feature of an abusive boss. Still, without knowing for sure, I've always assumed that the outbursts are staged, if not rehearsed. I can't deny that it's entertaining, like reality cop shows. A lot of drama is about worlds that I wouldn't choose to live in.

spoonjim 5y ago
Yes, the Gordon Ramsay you see on TV is definitely a made-for-TV character.

mikestew 5y ago

He’s not abusive to his own children? What a saint he must be. “Dealing with an idiot sandwich” is precisely the differentiation between nice person and asshole. “Dealing with an idiot sandwich” is also victim-blaming. The idiot sandwich might also argue “idiot boss who can’t articulate what he wants”.

ggambetta 5y ago

Ramsey is also a lot more abusive in the shows produced in the US, compared to the UK ones. The man is acting for a specific audience.

HPsquared 5y ago
That, or he just doesn't like Americans...

spoonjim 5y ago

That is exactly... abuse. Abusive bosses can be nice to their kids. Abusive bosses can be nice to their employees. Abusive bosses can even be nice to "idiot sandwiches." What makes an abusive boss is how they are at their worst: a professional boss will act with composure, either trying to help the worker become better or firing them professionally if they need to go.

jwilber 5y ago

Would love reading a paper discussing the process leading to people publicly advocating for people they’ve never met. Great PR machines, media.

wutbrodo 5y ago

what an incredibly bizarre comment. "I don't know how anyone can see Ramsay as abusive. He's a super nice guy who only abuses idiots who deserve it". What definition of abusiveness _doesn't_ include targeting only "those who deserve it", as defined by the abuser?

indymike 5y ago

I disagree with this. Calling names and yelling and screaming is a lot less efficient than a quiet "This isn't right. How can we not have this happen again?" I say this as a guy who learned to lead in the Navy, and discovered that, when I yelled and grandstanded, it was all about my ego and not about getting things done and done right. I will say that assholes in high pressure situations are entertaining to watch on TV, but absolutely not that effective (the idiot sandwich will quit and piss in the soup on the way out) in real life.

Mikeb85 5y ago

While I'm not sure about your take, as someone with some links to the world of ultra-high end dining, Gordon Ramsey's persona is definitely made for TV. He worked for the chef whose persona he copies on TV (Marco Pierre White) but I've heard that he's much more pleasant in his own restaurants. That being said, the glorification of such personas is troubling and a problem for the restaurant industry.