8 ms·
The Normalization of Violence in Commercial Kitchens Through Food Media
- brudgers 5y agoRelated, So you want to be a Chef. https://web.archive.org/web/20210123015245/https://ruhlman.com/so-you-wanna-be-a-chef-by-bourdain-2/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210123015245/https://ruhlman.c...
- laretluval 5y agohttps://youtu.be/dTaUliCxN_o https://youtu.be/dTaUliCxN_o
- JasonFruit 5y agoI find some of the media mentioned hard to watch, like I would video of any other psychological or physical abuse. I'm not a bleeding heart, but I think that sort of "reality" TV is our little Coliseum.
- civilized 5y agoNurtureShock, a book about parenting and child development research, has a chapter discussing how children's television shows kids behaving badly for dramatic reasons, followed by a resolution that "teaches a lesson". It turns out that, instead of learning the lesson, kids just internalize the bad behavior. I wonder if a similar phenomenon happens with adults, especially since these reality shows don't even have the redeeming/lesson element. These shows reinforce dysfunctional culture by making it look normal and/or exciting.
- germinalphrase 5y agoI’ve heard of similar research around language use: young children tend to focus on nouns and verbs to the exclusion of adverbs, etc, so “don’t throw sand at Tommy” may reinforce “throw sand at Tommy” as the “don’t” is subconsciously elided. (A more effective phrasing might be ‘keep the sand on the ground’)
- lahvak 5y agoI am very skeptical about this. I remember enough from my own childhood to know that a request "Don't throw sand at Tommy" would be met with "OK, that make sense, Tommy probably does not want to have sand thrown at him" kind of reaction, while my reaction to "keep the sand on the ground" would immediately be "why? what if I want to play with it, build a sand castle from it, ...".
- germinalphrase 5y agoThe point is mostly referring to very young children - under age five. Most people don’t remember much before then, so your remembered childhood self is probably older than the demo of this argument.
- wutbrodo 5y agoI fully agree. I hate to say it, but I don't even have a model of the type of person who enjoys shows like those.
- jka 5y agoI'd venture that some of it at least is a combination of two factors: - Compulsive and systematic abusers can make their way to powerful positions in the majority of modern organizations, where hierarchy and a lack of empathy can provide them with an edge. - Normal people who suffer abuse - even if it's indirectly, and even if they're not really aware or able to articulate that something is wrong (for example, if they've experienced angry comments or unnecessary work from a manager, who is in fact simply passing down unpleasant demands they've received from above) are comforted and sedated by seeing that kind of abuse normalized on a "respectable" / "popular" television show. If that theory is accurate, it wouldn't necessarily mean you have to be sympathetic to either population. It's just a possible way to understand the circumstances that lead normal people to spend their downtime with shows like this. Understanding can lead to empathy, and with both it's possible to find improvements. Change without understanding and empathy can be risky.
- ouid 5y agoI have noticed that, on reddit at least, entertainment has a very strong region from which it converges to "getting off on feeling smarter/better than other people". This is based on my own experience filtering subs from r/all when I notice that this is the experience that they are providing. The filter list is currently dozens to hundreds of subreddits long, and almost all of them have several hundred thousand subscribers. I suspect, based on these anecdata, that television has the same convergence properties, and the abusive reality TV spectacle is mostly about assuaging viewers' inferiority complexes in the same way. "Look at how badly this person is running this restaurant, at least you aren't as dumb as they are", "Look at these idiots taking this dating show seriously. If I were a contestant on the bachelor, I would never ____", etc. (I am not intrinsically opposed to the notion that it's just gladiatorial spectacle, but I have been acutely aware of this force for a while now, and try to shoehorn it into explaining every social malady.)
- rnd0 5y agoI don't disagree with what you're saying necessarily or with the negative implications of that genre of reality tv. But for me, specifically with Gorden Ramsey's shows, the appeal is different. To me, it's about watching someone who tries to pull one over on Ramsey and fails miserably. The deciept is a part of the appeal (sometimes the deceipt is self deciept, admittedly).
- tailspin2019 5y agoI'm the same. I've always despised (for example) Gordon Ramsay's abusive style and never quite understood the appeal of a show that demonstrated such bad treatment of fellow humans. I don't care how you dress it up -- high standards, toughening them up etc. etc.-- it's just a fucking horrible way to treat people. And even if you can somehow justify it, what is it about working in a kitchen of all places that necessitates treating staff like utter shit? I can think of much higher stakes careers where this type of treatment would never happen nor be deemed to be "required" for any reason whatsoever. It's even more reprehensible when you consider the position of power these people are in, and how those keen to get into the industry are more likely to submit themselves to this demeaning behaviour for the sake of their career. And even even more so when you consider what a wide reach these people have in terms of audience. How many young people are they being a bad role model for. Finally, an admission of hypocrisy on my part (given the above); I recently watched and enjoyed quite a few episodes of Gordon Ramsay's courses on Masterclass, where mercifully he is alone in his kitchen, with no one to abuse, and is actually quite cordial and charismatic. I've never given a crap about cooking before, and watched an episode on a whim and found myself quite inspired. So that at least seems to imply that there is an alternative way of presenting cooking shows without ripping junior staff to shreds. (Or alternatively, it implies that I'm a hypocrite and you should ignore everything I say).
- roflc0ptic 5y agoAnother strangely abusive environment is theatre. Theres just like, a very weird culture of entitlement and control among the directors I’ve dealt with. It feels super unnecessary to the end product, just a side effect of… some confluence between egos, culture, and borderline personality disorder, I guess
- analog31 5y agoI wonder if this is related to the low pay. I'm a part time working musician (as in, don't quit your day job). I've noticed that how the musicians are treated by both bandleaders and venues is roughly proportional to how much we're getting paid. But I've also noticed that the abusive environment that we've heard about at the top of the business, doesn't necessarily trickle down to the lower echelons. At the level of work that I typically get called for, bandleaders who abuse their players get weeded out very quickly.
- indymike 5y agoI have two kids that are actresses (both are getting their first professional jobs now), and well, here goes: prior to 2019, asshat producers and directors were the norm. Everything from attempted casting couch-ish shenanigans (both were in their teens so, have a seat over there needed to happen to these guys) to screaming fits in rehearsals. Between cancelling sexual predators and COVID changing people's tolerance for abusive behavior, things are getting a lot better. The disorder in all of it were lots of people were in the business for reasons other than putting on a great experience for audiences... and I do se a huge improvement on the stage from what was going on a few years ago. It's really important that everyone in the business, from Hollywood to the local youth civic theater continue to root out the bad ones. There's a lot of great talent waiting to direct and produce the next show/movie/whatever, and it's time we gave them a chance over the abusive, predatory asshats that were the norm of the past.
- roflc0ptic 5y agoHow has COVID reduced tolerance for abusive behavior?
- legerdemain 5y agoI find the vilification of Gordon Ramsey misguided. He is the nicest man in the kitchen (not to mention the world's top TV chef at the moment). Look how tenderly and patiently he acts with his own children in the kitchen segments where they appear. If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich, yeah, he does what needs to be done, but he is never wantonly or arbitrarily abusive, and it makes satisfying watching to boot!
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich, yeah, he does what needs to be done, but he is never wantonly or arbitrarily abusive, and it makes satisfying watching to boot! I am so very sick of this false rationalization. There is nothing about having high standards that requires abusive behavior to enforce them. That is straight up bullshit. Ramsey is indeed playing up the abuse for the sake of attracting viewers, however it's not purely an act. He was trained under Marco Pierre White, arguably the first modern celebrity chef, who was infamous for straight up violence in his kitchens. Kitchens are dangerous enough. There is zero excuse for throwing pots at peoples heads or starting straight up fist fights. Listen to people who've worked in Ramsey's restaurants and it's clear the example he sets results in abusive behavior top to bottom. By way of contrast, there's a Canadian chef named Laura Caulder that was traditionally trained by someone very high up in the French culinary world. She had a show for a number of years on Canadian tv, including a special episode where she went back to her alma mater to help out with a very high profile dinner (think ambassadors and royals sort of thing). Her mentor was fascinating to watch, because she was completely unyielding on holding the very highest standards, but without a shred of abusive behavior. She simply stated things as they were, demanded better, and that was that. There's nothing about Ramsey's antics that are necessary for achieving greatness, and it's depressing that people find abusive behavior satisfying to watch.
- rafale 5y ago>> If he's dealing with an idiot sandwich... They are still human beings that should be treated with dignity.
- zpeti 5y ago
- MichaelGroves 5y agoThanks to the influence of television, arguably the most famous chef in the world is famous not for food, but rather for verbal abuse.
- jstx1 5y ago> By exploring television shows, like “Hell’s Kitchen,” and chef memoirs, like Bourdain’s Kitchen Confidential, readers will see how bullying and harassment are romanticized in these mediums, glorified as a product of kitchen subculture, and consequently normalized in the kitchen. Can the study really make this conclusion? Has media had an effect on bullying and harrasment in the cooking industry or is something that is already common in that industry being shown as entertainment?
- tailspin2019 5y ago> Can the study really make this conclusion? Has media had an effect on bullying and harrasment in the cooking industry or is something that is already common in that industry being shown as entertainment? I do see your point in terms of questioning how they came to this conclusion. However, to put it a different way; Given the extreme behaviour depicted in these widely watched shows, would you consider that violent/aggressive behaviour in kitchens would likely be overall, A) less normalised, B) the same (no effect), or B) more normalised? In other words, it may well have already existed in the industry already, but are the shows helping to make this better or worse...
- superkuh 5y agoBlaming television is easy. But this is not a new problem created by television. Commercial kitchens are high stress, fast paced, cramped hot environments with little pay that act as a job of last resort for many people. That's why there's violence.
- nwatson 5y agoOne show that does creative competition right is the glass-blowing competition "Blown Away" on Netflix. Interesting characters, fascinating and demanding medium, good affirmative vibe while allowing for honest criticism. My daughter rewatches the episode from both existing seasons frequently and enjoys the personalities.
- gambiting 5y agoIt's great indeed, really enjoyed it. Turns out you can make a fascinating show about a creative process without people calling each other dickheads every minute, and without what I call "American" editing where there's dramatic music and camera zooms for every mundane action on the screen.
- ourmandave 5y agoThis doesn't sound right. Who uses reality tv as a model of how they should act at work? I like watching truck modding shows where it's just a guy bolting on upgrades and whatever. But that's not entertaining enough, so the reality tv version is a car shop where the owner has to come out and act like a chimp, yell and throw wrenches and shit because the parts haven't arrived yet or a repair is behind schedule.
- AlbertCory 5y agoI don't watch any "reality" shows. Because they're not reality -- they're some show runner's idea of what will sell. The producers choose people and situations for their dramatic potential, and then manipulate the "actors" until they get what they want. Reality doesn't have a soundtrack. And most of the time, it's boring and nothing is happening. As soon as you edit out all the boring parts, you're not "reality" anymore.
- ceilingcorner 5y agoAs someone that worked in kitchens for years, this is backwards. The environments are already like this and the media simply describe it. My personal theory is that kitchen jobs attract a certain sort of person: ones with short attention spans (making a dish is immediately rewarding) and those that couldn’t get a “real job” due to tattoos, drug use, alcoholism, etc. etc. This all adds up to a more variable group of people than the white collar academic media class considers normal.