5 ms·
Does it make a difference that Apple is the hardware manufacturer, whereas Microsoft just provides the OS for PCs in general?
by hypertele-Xii 5y ago
Does it make a difference that Apple is the hardware manufacturer, whereas Microsoft just provides the OS for PCs in general?
- H8crilA 5y agoYou mean Apple's monopoly position is even stronger because they can put roadblocks at the hardware level? :)
- roenxi 5y agoThe problem with that line of accusation is that Apple having a monopoly on the production and maintenance of Apple products isn't a very compelling threat. In a more reasonable market, like smartphones or phones in total, Apple just does not have a monopoly. There are alternatives.
- howinteresting 5y agoOften the measure used for market share is not a linear one but a squared one. By that measure, there is very little competition in the smartphone segment—it is highly concentrated and so the major players (both Apple and Google) should face greater antitrust scrutiny. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herfindahl%E2%80%93Hirschman_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herfindahl%E2%80%93Hirschman...
- danShumway 5y agoKeep in mind that the words "reasonable market" and "alternatives" are doing a lot of work here. From the linked documents: > If Android competed with iOS on app transactions, the market competition would make Android apps cheaper for users and attract developers to launch their apps first (or even only) on Android. [...] After a meeting involving senior executives of Google and Apple, notes of the meeting were exchanged between the two companies. The notes reflect: "Our vision is that we work as if we are one company." Epic's lawsuits are alleging that both Apple and Google have engaged in anti-competitive behavior here, albeit sometimes in different ways. Even bolder, they're claiming that Google and Apple engaged cooperative anti-competitive behavior that benefited both companies. What consumer-ready alternatives exist for users outside of Apple and Android? If a developer announces that they're building a smartphone game, and that it won't work on Android or iOS, do you think it's reasonably possible for that developer to make money with that game? Apple has massive amounts of competitive leverage over the smartphone ecosystem; they control the most profitable app store. And the vast majority of non-iOS phones are running the Google Play Store. In that context, locking down the hardware has much bigger implications than it would in a truly competitive market. I think the question is, do we actually have a competitive smartphone market when it comes to smartphone app stores and OSes?
- dylan604 5y agoNon-sequitor: I hate that it's going to be Epic that really gets this to take hold. If it were anybody else. This is like watching a sports game where you want both teams to loose. There's a lot of Apple iOS policy I don't like, but I also don't like Epic (personal reasons). This would put Epic on a pedestal that I'd rather not see. I do shudder at the day of seeing websites that only work on Chrome for iOS, an app that I will never use.
- 0x0nyandesu 5y agoIn the entertainment industry not having an iPhone literally hurts your career. If you can't use iMessage people look at you weird and you are literally excluded from social circles. I know someone that was in tech and went into music and even though she prefers Android she ended up caving and getting an iPhone.
- techrat 5y agoI work in the entertainment industry. You're full of shit.
- 0x0nyandesu 5y agoLmk when you get invited to an after party with the talent in the Hollywood hills. And by talent mean 18-25 year old valley girls.
- techrat 5y agoThe problem is what you consider 'talent' to be. 18-25 valley girls are not representative of the actual entertainment industry. Nor are they relevant.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- IncRnd 5y agoYou may not be aware, but you can send from imessage to an android. The other way works, too.
- stale2002 5y ago> like smartphones or phones in total, Apple just does not have a monopoly. A monopoly is not needed for anti-competitive behavior to be illegal. All that is needed is significant market power. Apple has 50% of the smartphone market. Which is around where courts have stated that anti-trust laws start to apply. 50% of a highly concentrated market is not a slam dunk anti-trust case, by any means, but it is within the realm where courts might rule against it, depending on numerous factors.
- judge2020 5y ago> A monopoly is not needed for anti-competitive behavior to be illegal. All that is needed is significant market power. Have any references where someone was sued for antitrust while having <50% marketshare (of course, using the market determined by the court at the time)? If what you say is true, is the cutoff for antitrust action just "when media outlets report on it long enough to actually be put in sight of regulators/congress"?
- stale2002 5y agoHere is the definition that the government gives. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a... The cutoff is as follows "Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors" If you want statements from a judge, regarding the 50 percent specifically, you can look up the following court cases and read from the primary source. "See Hayden Publ'g Co., Inc. v. Cox Broad. Corp., 730 F.2d 64, 69 n.7 (2d Cir. 1984) ("[A] party may have monopoly power in a particular market, even though its market share is less than 50%."); Broadway Delivery Corp. v. UPS, 651 F.2d 122, 129 (2d Cir. 1981) ("[W]hen the evidence presents a fair jury issue of monopoly power, the jury should not be told that it must find monopoly power lacking below a specified share."); Yoder Bros., Inc. v. Cal.-Fla. Plant Corp., 537 F.2d, 1347, 1367 n.19 (5th Cir. 1976) (rejecting "a rigid rule requiring 50% of the market for a monopolization offense without regard to any other factors")." But yes, typically, if a company has less than 50% of a market, anti-trust law does not apply. But the word "typically" does not mean "always". (And Apple has 54% of the US market) And whether it applies, would defend on "other factors", as according to the quote I linked, and there is a good argument, IMO, that a duopoly would be a reasonable "other factor".
- overtonwhy 5y agoBecause the whole device and experience is the product. It's not just an OS.
- trhway 5y agoyep, that was the argument against the rebates and disbundling Windows from laptops.
- hypertele-Xii 5y agoBut the contrarian opinion would amount to forcing companies to interoperate, which is a massive endeavour of standards and committees - usually only undertaken for natural monopolies to avoid tragedy of the commons. Are smartphones a natural monopoly? And at what levels? Hardware (including plugs and jacks, physical button locations and functions?), software, data federation? Like where do you draw the line? If smartphones must allow alternatives, then why not gaming consoles? It's a similarily integrated device. Would Microsoft be forced to allow unlicenced 3rd party software on the Xbox?
- pyrale 5y ago> If smartphones must allow alternatives, then why not gaming consoles? One may argue that people rarely need a gaming console to pursue job opportunities, for instance. A smartphone, on the other hand, has become practically mandatory in many industries.
- amelius 5y agoDo you think the consumer would have been better off if Microsoft was the hardware manufacturer too, back then?
- laurent92 5y agoIt feels like I could find a line, to rationalize what happened or not to MS or Apple. But in reality, in the wake of 9/11, USA thought it was more important to have extremely large companies, and it let them grow. (And MS’ EU fine was related to not giving the API doc, and perhaps using fines as a political weapon). Clearly, if US applied the anti-monopoly laws, it would shoot its own companies. In my opinion however, no single entity should dominate, govt or enterprise, and we must parcel large ones to keep competition fair, replacements rolling, class mobility high, the american dream possible for new entrants and more importantly, so that governance of our daily life is regularly given to the next generation.
- skohan 5y agoWhat does pro-corporate policy have to do with 9/11?
- AlbertCory 5y ago"In the wake of 9/11" is lazy writing. Kinda like businesses saying "we have crappy service, because of COVID." Antitrust enforcement has more to do with the party in power than anything else. The Bush Administration wasn't interested in suing businesses, and now the Biden Administration is again.
- galleywest 5y agoMicrosoft DOES sell hardware. The Surface series anybody?
- filoleg 5y agoIt does now. The discussion isn’t about Microsoft in the present time, it is about Microsoft in the time when they lost their anti-trust lawsuit.