5 ms·

Can all the people advocating for an IMO completely dystopic society where everywhere our faces are covered, point me to some peer reviewed, legit studies about

by zpeti 5y ago

Can all the people advocating for an IMO completely dystopic society where everywhere our faces are covered, point me to some peer reviewed, legit studies about masks actually working? Especially cloth masks that 80% of people use? The only legit study ive seen is the danish one that shows masks basically do nothing to stop the spread of aerosol transmission, which COVID is.

Aeolun 5y ago
Well, that took me much less time than I actually expected. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7 It does note that non-medical (e.g. cloth) masks may be less effective, but whether those are used a lot seems to depend on environment (nobody seems to use them here). Edit: One more for cloth masks https://www.nature.com/articles/jes201642 https://www.nature.com/articles/jes201642
- zpeti 5y ago
  I’m sceptical. This study measures aerosols going into a funnel centimeters away. It is also done with 10 people. This is a highly artificial situation. They even admit that they didn’t measure aerosol escapes at the top and side of masks. What happens when you spend 15 minutes in a small room with a COVID infected person with a mask? When all side escaped aerosols spread in the room? Or in a shopping center with 10 COVID infected people? That’s the real life situation. And in that situation I’ve not seen any studies done. To me this is basic physics. Aerosols float in the air. Any particles escaping the direct surface of the mask will float into the air. Just like dust. Except viruses are even smaller and float more. Any closed environment is likely to be saturated with virus fairly quickly, and if they aren’t filtered by a kn95 mask you will breath them in. Edit: and I think with the new variants we are in a worse and worse situation. The initial variant needed 15 minutes of exposure to infect you apparently. I’m pretty sure delta is much much less. A few minutes or under a minute in a saturated room, mask or no mask, is prob enough
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    I agree with you, and think it’s kind of obvious, which is why nobody is testing for that I think. If you spend long enough in a small room, even with someone wearing a mask the mask is not going to do much to prevent transmission. I think that’s why the first rule of COVID is to not stay together in small rooms. The important part is if you’ll be instantly infected by someone talking with you over the counter for a minute, and for that scenario masks are (apparently) pretty great. The only way would be to wear N95+ masks yourself.
    - sleavey 5y ago
      > The only way would be to wear N95+ masks yourself. And properly. Almost no one wears one properly, because it requires training, correct sizing and e.g. to be shaved. Mandating that everyone wears masks without training people is lunacy. When they inevitably don't work people lose faith is science because they were told there was scientific evidence that they will help, when in fact scientific studies were made only in specific, limited conditions.
- yobbo 5y ago
  These studies do not support any claims regarding how covid spreads. I suspect the main reason covid spread doesn't correlate with mask wearing is due to the size of the particles/aerosols, so few are wearing filtering masks (what you would wear in a painting booth), and so few masks are sealed around the face. And then mask discipline. What I have observed is that masks are used a social queue; people wear them outside in public to signal "don't talk to me", and remove them in private when with friends. This behaviour is opposite of what would be effective, given that the right sort of masks are used, which is almost never the case.
polote 5y ago
You won't find any. Masks reduces the spread by the person who has covid, and it only reduces the spread if he wears it at all time, which is going to be the case in a study but is never going to be the case in reality. Covid doesn't seem to be only aerosol BTW. The only things that works at an individual level to reduce the risk to catch covid is to talk to less people. Which again is easy to do if it is chosen by the person but not going to happen if this is compulsory. Mask works in theory but don't works when compulsory, social distancing works in theory but don't work when compulsory. Thus the probability that a legit study prove that mask mandate works exists is 0.

by zpeti 5y ago

Aeolun 5y ago

Well, that took me much less time than I actually expected. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7 It does note that non-medical (e.g. cloth) masks may be less effective, but whether those are used a lot seems to depend on environment (nobody seems to use them here). Edit: One more for cloth masks https://www.nature.com/articles/jes201642 https://www.nature.com/articles/jes201642

zpeti 5y ago
I’m sceptical. This study measures aerosols going into a funnel centimeters away. It is also done with 10 people. This is a highly artificial situation. They even admit that they didn’t measure aerosol escapes at the top and side of masks. What happens when you spend 15 minutes in a small room with a COVID infected person with a mask? When all side escaped aerosols spread in the room? Or in a shopping center with 10 COVID infected people? That’s the real life situation. And in that situation I’ve not seen any studies done. To me this is basic physics. Aerosols float in the air. Any particles escaping the direct surface of the mask will float into the air. Just like dust. Except viruses are even smaller and float more. Any closed environment is likely to be saturated with virus fairly quickly, and if they aren’t filtered by a kn95 mask you will breath them in. Edit: and I think with the new variants we are in a worse and worse situation. The initial variant needed 15 minutes of exposure to infect you apparently. I’m pretty sure delta is much much less. A few minutes or under a minute in a saturated room, mask or no mask, is prob enough
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I agree with you, and think it’s kind of obvious, which is why nobody is testing for that I think. If you spend long enough in a small room, even with someone wearing a mask the mask is not going to do much to prevent transmission. I think that’s why the first rule of COVID is to not stay together in small rooms. The important part is if you’ll be instantly infected by someone talking with you over the counter for a minute, and for that scenario masks are (apparently) pretty great. The only way would be to wear N95+ masks yourself.
  - sleavey 5y ago
    > The only way would be to wear N95+ masks yourself. And properly. Almost no one wears one properly, because it requires training, correct sizing and e.g. to be shaved. Mandating that everyone wears masks without training people is lunacy. When they inevitably don't work people lose faith is science because they were told there was scientific evidence that they will help, when in fact scientific studies were made only in specific, limited conditions.
yobbo 5y ago
These studies do not support any claims regarding how covid spreads. I suspect the main reason covid spread doesn't correlate with mask wearing is due to the size of the particles/aerosols, so few are wearing filtering masks (what you would wear in a painting booth), and so few masks are sealed around the face. And then mask discipline. What I have observed is that masks are used a social queue; people wear them outside in public to signal "don't talk to me", and remove them in private when with friends. This behaviour is opposite of what would be effective, given that the right sort of masks are used, which is almost never the case.

polote 5y ago

You won't find any. Masks reduces the spread by the person who has covid, and it only reduces the spread if he wears it at all time, which is going to be the case in a study but is never going to be the case in reality. Covid doesn't seem to be only aerosol BTW. The only things that works at an individual level to reduce the risk to catch covid is to talk to less people. Which again is easy to do if it is chosen by the person but not going to happen if this is compulsory. Mask works in theory but don't works when compulsory, social distancing works in theory but don't work when compulsory. Thus the probability that a legit study prove that mask mandate works exists is 0.