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Isn't long Covid caused by damage from the spike proteins? In that case, repeatedly giving people the vaccine might do damage as well since it gets you to produ

Isn't long Covid caused by damage from the spike proteins? In that case, repeatedly giving people the vaccine might do damage as well since it gets you to produce those spike proteins right?

eecc 5y ago
orders of magnitude less though.
red_trumpet 5y ago
What's your source that spike proteins cause long covid? This article[1] says the cause of long covid is still not clear. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57833394 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57833394
nradov 5y ago
Long COVID isn't a distinct disease, it's just a vague label for a set of non specific symptoms. There is evidence that some cases are caused by re-activation of dormant Epstein-Barr virus infections. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8233978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8233978/ If proven correct that wouldn't be at all surprising. We already know that major stresses can sometimes reactivate EBV. It might be a good idea to also test all COVID-19 patients for EBV.
undersuit 5y ago
The spike proteins allow Covid to enter your cell where its actual RNA coopts the cellular machinery of the cell to reproduce. After enough copies of the virus are assembled the RNA coopted cell is made to kill itself by self-lysis releasing the new viruses. The spike protein itself is not dangerous.
- singingfish 5y ago
  I think it kind of is because it's got a similar binding affinity to heparin. Heparin is a first responder chemical in the immune system. Coopting a low level part of the immune system like that is rather more dangerous than if it were getting entry via some other mechanism. On the other hand I could be wrong about this.
  - foldr 5y ago
    Hundreds of millions of people have received vaccines that (either directly or indirectly) expose them to the spike protein in question, so clearly it can’t be dangerous.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      Please tell me you're joking.
      - foldr 5y ago
        OP is probably making some kind of reference to this: https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n954 https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n954 I think they’ve got things a bit mixed up re the spike protein being the crucial element, though. We now know beyond doubt that the risk of blood clots associated with any of the major vaccines is tiny, and very probably zero. Despite a lot of scare stories in the media, there has never really been any good evidence of a link at all. To suggest at this point that any of the vaccines used in the West is “kind of dangerous” is just to say something obviously untrue. If the vaccines were dangerous we’d be seeing their harmful effects on a massive scale by now.
        phkahler 5y ago
        >> If the vaccines were dangerous we’d be seeing their harmful effects on a massive scale by now. That's a bit all-or-nothing. There have been cases of bad reactions to them (small scale). That's not my point though, and to be clear I'm not anti-vax, just wondering if the spike proteins actually cause damage, possibly cumulative. I don't recall where I got the idea that they are responsible for damage though.
        foldr 5y ago
        It’s not all or nothing. It’s the only sensible conclusion that can be drawn after hundreds of millions of vaccinations. We know that the associated risks are tiny. There is always a non-zero risk from being injected with anything at all, but there is no reasonable sense in which COVID vaccines are “dangerous”. > and to be clear I'm not anti-vax, just wondering if the spike proteins actually cause damage, possibly cumulative. I don't recall where I got the idea that they are responsible for damage though. If you can’t even remember the source, it’s maybe not such a great idea to spread these sorts of unfounded rumors in the middle of a public health crisis.
michaelmrose 5y ago
To be clear mRNA vaccination introduces a small finite amount of mRNA that the body turns into spike proteins whereas infection with covid results in the body being used as a factory to manufacture virus which manufacturers more virus and so on. This source suggests that a single person may be at peak infection host to between 1 billion to 100 billion virions.This is peak load at one time not an account of the total virions produces over course of infection. Vaccination involves a vastly smaller number of proteins that are not damaging in the same fashion. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/scicheck-covid-19-vaccine-generated-spike-protein-is-safe-contrary-to-viral-claims/ https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/scicheck-covid-19-vaccine-... > That’s because the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is a shape-shifter. To fuse its viral membrane with the host cell membrane it substantially changes its shape from an unstable pre-fusion state to a stable post-fusion state. While previously working on a vaccine for MERS, a disease caused by another coronavirus, McLellan and others discovered that by adding two proline molecules to the spike protein, they could lock it into its pre-fusion state, triggering a more effective immune response and preventing cell entry. The same harmless mutation, called 2P, as in two proline molecules, is used in the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.

Isn't long Covid caused by damage from the spike proteins? In that case, repeatedly giving people the vaccine might do damage as well since it gets you to produce those spike proteins right?

eecc 5y ago

orders of magnitude less though.

red_trumpet 5y ago

What's your source that spike proteins cause long covid? This article[1] says the cause of long covid is still not clear. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57833394 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57833394

nradov 5y ago

Long COVID isn't a distinct disease, it's just a vague label for a set of non specific symptoms. There is evidence that some cases are caused by re-activation of dormant Epstein-Barr virus infections. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8233978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8233978/ If proven correct that wouldn't be at all surprising. We already know that major stresses can sometimes reactivate EBV. It might be a good idea to also test all COVID-19 patients for EBV.

undersuit 5y ago

The spike proteins allow Covid to enter your cell where its actual RNA coopts the cellular machinery of the cell to reproduce. After enough copies of the virus are assembled the RNA coopted cell is made to kill itself by self-lysis releasing the new viruses. The spike protein itself is not dangerous.

singingfish 5y ago
I think it kind of is because it's got a similar binding affinity to heparin. Heparin is a first responder chemical in the immune system. Coopting a low level part of the immune system like that is rather more dangerous than if it were getting entry via some other mechanism. On the other hand I could be wrong about this.
- foldr 5y ago
  Hundreds of millions of people have received vaccines that (either directly or indirectly) expose them to the spike protein in question, so clearly it can’t be dangerous.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    Please tell me you're joking.
    - foldr 5y ago
      OP is probably making some kind of reference to this: https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n954 https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n954 I think they’ve got things a bit mixed up re the spike protein being the crucial element, though. We now know beyond doubt that the risk of blood clots associated with any of the major vaccines is tiny, and very probably zero. Despite a lot of scare stories in the media, there has never really been any good evidence of a link at all. To suggest at this point that any of the vaccines used in the West is “kind of dangerous” is just to say something obviously untrue. If the vaccines were dangerous we’d be seeing their harmful effects on a massive scale by now.
      - phkahler 5y ago
        >> If the vaccines were dangerous we’d be seeing their harmful effects on a massive scale by now. That's a bit all-or-nothing. There have been cases of bad reactions to them (small scale). That's not my point though, and to be clear I'm not anti-vax, just wondering if the spike proteins actually cause damage, possibly cumulative. I don't recall where I got the idea that they are responsible for damage though.
        foldr 5y ago
        It’s not all or nothing. It’s the only sensible conclusion that can be drawn after hundreds of millions of vaccinations. We know that the associated risks are tiny. There is always a non-zero risk from being injected with anything at all, but there is no reasonable sense in which COVID vaccines are “dangerous”. > and to be clear I'm not anti-vax, just wondering if the spike proteins actually cause damage, possibly cumulative. I don't recall where I got the idea that they are responsible for damage though. If you can’t even remember the source, it’s maybe not such a great idea to spread these sorts of unfounded rumors in the middle of a public health crisis.

michaelmrose 5y ago

To be clear mRNA vaccination introduces a small finite amount of mRNA that the body turns into spike proteins whereas infection with covid results in the body being used as a factory to manufacture virus which manufacturers more virus and so on. This source suggests that a single person may be at peak infection host to between 1 billion to 100 billion virions.This is peak load at one time not an account of the total virions produces over course of infection. Vaccination involves a vastly smaller number of proteins that are not damaging in the same fashion. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/scicheck-covid-19-vaccine-generated-spike-protein-is-safe-contrary-to-viral-claims/ https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/scicheck-covid-19-vaccine-... > That’s because the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is a shape-shifter. To fuse its viral membrane with the host cell membrane it substantially changes its shape from an unstable pre-fusion state to a stable post-fusion state. While previously working on a vaccine for MERS, a disease caused by another coronavirus, McLellan and others discovered that by adding two proline molecules to the spike protein, they could lock it into its pre-fusion state, triggering a more effective immune response and preventing cell entry. The same harmless mutation, called 2P, as in two proline molecules, is used in the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.