21 ms·

Covid is going to be endemic like the flu and cold. It's not going to be eradicated, unfortunately, and I don't think we've come to terms with this yet. Now wh

Covid is going to be endemic like the flu and cold. It's not going to be eradicated, unfortunately, and I don't think we've come to terms with this yet. Now what's our plan exactly? Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks? What's our goal and what's our new normal?

aantix 5y ago
Take Vitamin D/C/Zinc/Niacin and build up natural immunity?
- johnbaker92 5y ago
  It's sad that this comment (and probably mine) downvoted despite being a reasonable long-term response to this virus. Instead of mandating this vaccine worldwide, why don't we focus on collectively building a better / stronger health that would prevent the large majority of severe cases?
  - tcbawo 5y ago
    I haven't seen an evidence that supplements would prevent the majority of severe cases, or the neurological damage done (in even mild cases). Is this something backed up by data?
    - johnbaker92 5y ago
      Health goes beyond taking nutrients (although they might help). Here we're talking about exercise, nutrition, mental health etc: - None of those were advocated by governments during this pandemic. - Some measures (lockdowns, etc.) were detrimental to individual health and (imo) contributed to complications we've been seeing. This is generally backed up by common sense (which - just like the flu - has mysteriously disappeared in the past 2 years)
      - BobbyJo 5y ago
        What's mysterious about the flu disappearing? The precautions taken to reduce COVID were extremely effective against influenza. Given that it was much more broadly circulating, and therefore a large percentage of the population had antibodies to dominant strains (more than COVID even now), one would expect masks and isolation to basically destroy it's spread no?
        lambdaba 5y ago
        It's also possible that viral disease dynamics are just like that, with one virus dominating at a time (amongst this class of highly contagious respiratory viruses).
    - mrfusion 5y ago
      Is neurological damage in mild cases backed up by data? The only study I saw was based on self reporting and an Internet based IQ test. Also considering perhaps 30% of the world has had covid now (anyone have the exact figure?) that would be an unbelievable amount of brain damage. I’d think we’d be aware of that if one in three people had recent brain damage.
      - nradov 5y ago
        The CDC estimates that 36% of Americans have been infected so far.
      - tcbawo 5y ago
        I'm neither a researcher or doctor, but I've seen numerous articles that describe this. Anecdotally, I've had multiple people (acquaintances and family) suffer from neurological effects. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32696341/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32696341/ https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Current-Research/Coronavirus-and-NINDS/nervous-system https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Current-Research/Coronavirus-and-N...
        mrfusion 5y ago
        Thanks for finding some papers but I’m not sure they support OP’s claim. I’ll admit I don’t understand the first one. Somehow they’re claiming covid causes Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s? How can we know that after less than two years? The second one is clear to mention “ Most people infected with SARS-CoV-2 virus will have no or mild to moderate symptoms associated with the brain or nervous system. However, most individuals hospitalized due to the virus do have symptoms related to the brain or nervous system, most commonly including muscle aches, headaches, dizziness, and altered taste and smell.” So They are claiming an effect but not for mild cases like OP said and not really claiming brain damage anyway.
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      Anyything that makes your immune system work properly will help, the reason Covid is even a subject is that there is a silent epidemic of immunocompromised people, a large number of which are unaware that they are - the kind of people who routinely get sick in the winter, for instance. It's very strange that we are pretending that healthiness doesn't exist or can't be improved. It can, and rather easily and cheaply (yes, Vitamin D is one, but also, especially for Covid, anything that improves vascular function, as the etiology of Covid is closely linked to vascular health... which is where Niacin (vitamin B3), vitamin C, and reducing /eliminating sugar come in).
      - andrekandre 5y ago
        why does improving vascular function help with dealing with covid? > etiology of Covid is closely linked to vascular health... any links about that? im curious to take a look
        lambdaba 5y ago
        If you look up "covid vascular" you'll find plenty of references. Seeing how it affects most people with chronic conditions associated with such problems (hypertension, diabetes), I'm convinced it's a correct assessment.
        andrekandre 5y ago
        interesting, thanks, ill take a look
  - Florin_Andrei 5y ago
    It is downvoted because it's pseudo-science.
    - nradov 5y ago
      At least in the case of vitamin D it's hardly pseudoscience. Multiple clinical studies have found that hypovitaminosis D is a serious risk factor for COVID-19. https://vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/ https://vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/
      - Florin_Andrei 5y ago
        It is correlated, but I am not aware of even a single study that shows actual causal determination.
        nradov 5y ago
        Are you claiming that you read all the studies linked above and none of them show actual causal determination? We can't really prove anything 100% in biology but the totality of evidence is very strong here.
        lambdaba 5y ago
        I recall studies showing significant efficacy even in acute settings, which was slightly unexpected, at least to me.
        protein_lense 5y ago
        This is not a study, but it does discuss the biochemistry of vitamin D and the role it plays in the immune system. It is left to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. COVID-19 and Vitamin D | Association Between Vitamin D Deficiency and COVID-19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1CaTv5-e4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1CaTv5-e4
    - johnbaker92 5y ago
      According to "science": - Lockdowns should have stopped covid. - Masks should have stopped covid. - Vaccines should have stopped covid. - "Health" passports and those ridiculous mandates should have stopped covid. The fact is, we're two years down the road and we're still talking about this virus - so "true" science (that advocated by governments / media I imagine?) is obviously not working. Time to take a step back and think for ourselves perhaps?
- walterbell 5y ago
  There's a social-acceptability phenomenon where people say one thing (e.g. in surveys) and do another (e.g. what they buy). Relatively early in 2020, some grocery and pharmacy shelves were completely emptied of Vit C/D/Zinc/Quercetin. When they were restocked, they would sell out again, even with per-customer quotas. This took place even with a complete news blackout on early treatments. As with HCQ/Ivermectin, we have decades of data showing very low risk of adverse effects from these early treatments. So the worst case is that people waste money on placebos. But there are studies showing that early treatment helps some (not all) patients to recover more quickly. Just as we don't know why some people are injured by vaccines, we don't know why some people are not helped by early intervention with supplements. More studies are need for both, including funding for autopsies of those who die and retroactive genomic sequencing of virus/vaccine/supplement samples collected from the most severely affected cases. India (origin of Delta) provides comparative data because some areas have rejected Ivermectin while other areas have embraced it. This is a ZH (sorry) article, but it uses data from Johns Hopkins, https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/indias-ivermectin-blackout https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/indias-ivermectin-blackou... > This data shows how Ivermectin knocked their COVID-19 cases and deaths - which we know were Delta Variant - down to almost zero within weeks. A population comparable to the US went from about 35,000 cases and 350 deaths per day to nearly ZERO within weeks of adding Ivermectin to their protocol. > Let us look at the August 5 numbers from Uttar Pradesh with 2/3 of our population. Uttar Pradesh, using Ivermectin, had a total of 26 new cases and exactly THREE deaths. The US without Ivermectin has precisely 4889 times as many daily cases and 191 times as many deaths as Uttar Pradesh with Ivermectin. At present, there are billions of dollars of economic incentives for suppression of early treatment, because vaccines are still under EUA that could be questioned by the availability of therapeutics with decades of safety data. If the FDA fully approves one or more vaccines in September 2021, perhaps there will be more economic incentives to perform research and studies of therapeutics. Merck (original holder of the Ivermectin patent) is developing a new patented therapeutic for early treatment of Covid. Time will tell whether this is a genuinely new treatment or an "evergreen" variant of Ivermectin to obtain patent revenue. Either way, it would mean that at least one Big Pharma company has an economic incentive to promote early therapeutics for Covid, which could provide some balance to the currently polarized treatment landscape.
  - 5y ago
sdze 5y ago
Too bad that the cold and influenza flu are not comparable with Covid-19.
schmichael 5y ago
I already get vaccinated every 12 months for the flu, so that seems like a fine plan to me.
- seunosewa 5y ago
  Perhaps they could add it to the flu shot.
- walterbell 5y ago
  We have many years of data on flu vaccine safety. Should the flu vaccine be combined with newer vaccines which have numerically less safety data?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - stopping 5y ago
    Sample size isn't the problem you think it is. The difference in statistical confidence between sample sizes of a hundred million (COVID vaccine doses) and a billion (flu vaccines) is basically zero. Perhaps you could try to make a case that we need more time to evaluate the long-term effects of the vaccines. Historically speaking, we know that side effects for any vaccine are incredibly rare after more than a few months. mRNA vaccine technology has been researched for decades and there are no indicators that there are long-term complications resulting from their use. Other vaccine technologies show similar long-term safety.
- xienze 5y ago
  Why get the flu vaccine anymore? If you believe official reports, it’s basically been eliminated by virtue of simple mask mandates that everyone swears no one is following.
  - schmichael 5y ago
    > Why get the flu vaccine anymore? Because it's safe and easy. I have immuno-compromised friends and elderly family members. Vaccines are almost literally the least I can do to help keep them safe. I have kids and taking care of sick kids is awful. Also I really really really hate having the flu personally. Bleh. > If you believe official reports, it’s basically been eliminated by virtue of simple mask mandates that everyone swears no one is following. I have not seen official reports that determined the drop in flu was due to masks. I would assume the drop in flu was due to many factors combined: schools and businesses going remote, other physical distancing, more people getting the flu vaccine to avoid getting sick and potentially straining our strained healthcare system, masking, and who knows what else... ...at any rate I expect the flu will return as kids go back to school, workers return to offices, etc. I'll keep getting vaccinated for the flu as long as my doctor recommends it for my reasons stated above.
delecti 5y ago
> Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks An annual Flu and COVID shot seems perfectly reasonable. Wearing masks in public is already normal (or at least not uncommon) in many places, and I don't have a problem with where I live being one of those places.
- gjs278 5y ago
  fuck off. im not getting anymore flu shots or covid shots. and im definitely not wearing a mask. I only exclusively go to places that let you in the door with a mask on and then you can immediately take it off.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  What if I have a problem with where I live being one of those places? Or another question in a similar vein, what if I don't have a problem wearing a mask but my neighbor does? Also I'd point out, seasonal flu vaccines are not mandatory and in most places have a low vaccination rate. Would you be fine with a non mandatory covid vaccine?
  - delecti 5y ago
    I think that if seasonal flu vaccines start being combined with seasonable COVID vaccines that the rate would go up. And unfortunately I think mandatory vaccines would be unacceptable to too many people to think it's a viable option. I don't have an answer to masks, though I think they'll get more and more normalized as time goes on. Even if COVID were to be basically suppressed, I'd probably still keep wearing them on public transit.
  - bertil 5y ago
    > What if I have a problem with where I live being one of those places? > Or another question in a similar vein, what if I don't have a problem wearing a mask but my neighbor does? Smocking raised the same questions.
baxtr 5y ago
Why indefinitely? If that was the case we would need shots for the other cold viruses as well, which we don't. As you say, Sars-2 will turn into an endemic virus and thus we will get used to it over time, death rates will drop and it will turn into a cold. There is absolutely no historic precedent to think it will turn out differently.
- chinathrow 5y ago
  If this is so clear, then my current question is how long would that take?
  - baxtr 5y ago
    I would say 3-5 years without vaccines. See for example the 1889 pandemic [1], which might have also been induced by a coronavirus. It's hard to say with a vaccine since there is no real precedent. If I had to guess I'd say 1-3 years? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889–1890_pandemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889–1890_pandemic
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  We get shots for the flu every year (or at least we should). That's the historical precedent.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    Influenza is a different virus which mutates aggressively (recombinant), I'm not under the impression sars-cov2 is similar in this regard.
    - raphlinus 5y ago
      Buckle up. Quoted tweet[1] below: Congrats to Ben Jackson, @maciekboni, @viralverity, @AineToole, @robertson_lab, @EvolveDotZoo, @arambaut et al for their recent Cell paper. Rock solid evidence of alpha/non-alpha recombination in #SARSCoV2 in the UK. https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00984-3 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00984-3 [1]: https://twitter.com/MichaelWorobey/status/1428515836629716999 https://twitter.com/MichaelWorobey/status/142851583662971699...
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Due to COVID not mutating as quickly, I think the end game is everyone getting immune, through a combination of repeated vaccinations and infections.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  What evidence do we have that covid "doesn't mutate as quickly"? There have been at least 3 distinct variants, separate from the original strain, since the virus was detected in late 2019 / early 2020.
  - bparsons 5y ago
    Relative to perhaps, the seasonal flu.
  - bonzini 5y ago
    These variants have their most severe symptoms blocked by the same vaccine with very similar effectiveness. Influenza viruses, on the other hand, undergo recombination in such a way that the vaccine has to be engineered every year based on guesses of what the prevalent strain is going to be.
- avereveard 5y ago
  immunization doesn't seem to last long enough for this plan, it will just increase the mutation pressure.
- ldjkfkdsjnv 5y ago
  I got covid last march, and got it again one month ago. I was very sick for three weeks on my second covid infection. I think we are about to face the harsh reality that covid is never going away, and immunity and is never going to happen. The virus will mutate and find new ways to infect
  - schmichael 5y ago
    > I think we are about to face... I feel like this is what most experts were saying from near the beginning: this is not a few months problem. This is an ongoing problem that will require us to adapt just as it adapts. I remember many articles in 2020 projecting what the virus might look like 5 or 8 years out. Lockdowns and other extreme measures were about flattening infection curves to keep from overwhelming health systems, not about eradicating the virus outright. Masks and distancing are about getting the virus to a manageable infection rate to minimize impact on our new normal lives. Vaccines are the only way out without high mortality and extreme pressure on our health systems. Whether it requires vaccines like polio (one or two and safe forever) or flu (annual) is yet to be determined AFAIK. It seems like somewhere in the middle is most likely at least for many years to come.
goodluckchuck 5y ago
Everything I've heard about how viruses evolve says that they get milder within the host population. The host's resistance keeps increasing as the virus mutates and the population is exposed to the new mutations, and over time this allows the virus to diverge from other populations... where the virus isn't spreading. E.g. diseases can evolve in Europe then spread to Native American populations. Evolve in bats, or apes, then spread to humans. Now that this virus has shown that humanity has become one population... and it will spread everywhere if we let it... we should let it. If we do strict testing, vaccination, etc. and prevent international travel, and otherwise fiercely prevent the virus from spreading across populations, then we'll have just created a situation where the virus could mutate to become harmful. As long as we do nothing we're safe.
- munk-a 5y ago
  It's absolutely horrific to bring up Native American populations considering the estimates on population loss range from 25% to 90% with most folks erring toward the 90% end of the range. As terrible as COVID has been we're no where near the level where - as a middle aged person with kids and parents[1] - it's expected that you'll be the only one to survive out of your extended family. Estimates about the fatality of COVID put it way below the small pox epidemic in North America but that's an absolutely terrible example to draw on. 1. Assume your parents had two children - you both married and had two kids - that's ten people so choose one to survive (obviously epidemics don't actually work this way, but I've found it's the clearest way to demonstrate proportional mortality rates.
pragmaticalien8 5y ago
Just like any vaccine, I suppose better generation of vaccine will emerge. https://athometest.com/blog/a-next-generation-sars-cov-2-vaccine/ https://athometest.com/blog/a-next-generation-sars-cov-2-vac...
nradov 5y ago
Same as with what probably happened with HCoV-OC43, another betacoronavirus very similar to SARS-CoV-2. Evidence indicates that it caused a worldwide pandemic that killed a lot of people starting in 1889. Now it's endemic. Most of us catch it when we're young and healthy which gives us partial immunity later. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1751-7915.13889 https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/175... Eventually almost all of us will be infected by some variant of SARS-CoV-2. Fortunately the vaccines are very effective at preventing death.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > Fortunately the vaccines are very effective at preventing death Yes individuals who have been vaccinated or recovered from natural infection will have durable immunity and significantly lower risk of severe outcomes like hospitalization and death. [5][6] The real question: is mass vaccination effective at preventing the spread and increasing trasmission/virulence of variants of concern? A growing body of the scientific literature and evidence suggests not. [1][2][3][4] This doesn't mean we shouldn't be using vaccines, rather we should use them in a highly targeted way, and supplemented by other therapeutic modalities. [1] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ [2] Can we predict the limits of SARS-CoV-2 variants and their phenotypic consequences? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... [3] Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fj... [4] Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016.2562 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016... [5] Longitudinal analysis shows durable and broad immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection with persisting antibody responses and memory B and T cells https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-37... [6] Rapid induction of antigen-specific CD4+ T cells is associated with coordinated humoral and cellular immune responses to SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(21)00308-3 https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(21)00308-3
jdavis703 5y ago
Yeah, as long as COVID-19 fills up hospitals we should do this. Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. I had untreated kidney stones for about a week at the peak of the pandemic. When I was in the middle of an attack I could not work, the pain was too severe. I was missing several hours of work everyday just dealing with pain. I finally got to the emergency room which did basic imaging and gave me painkillers and muscle relaxers. I didn’t get the actual stones removed until 6 months later! So yes, I’d rather vaccinate and mask up then be denied healthcare.
- walterbell 5y ago
  > Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. A non-trivial percentage of healthcare workers were infected in 2020 and recovered with natural immunity to Covid. Some of those feel strongly enough about vaccine mandates that they are prepared to move jurisdictions or retire, which would exacerbate existing staffing shortages in some hospitals. If we don't want more hospital shortages, we should reconsider unnecessary vaccine mandates for those with hard-earned natural immunity, which includes nasal/mucosal immunity, unlike intramuscular vaccines that were developed for symptom reduction, https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccines/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccine... > Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.” The fact that the vaccines don’t block all infections and don’t prevent vaccinated people from transmitting isn’t a big surprise, said Kathryn Edwards, a vaccine expert at Vanderbilt School of Medicine. The UK's SAGE also commented on nasal (inhaler) vaccine development and the consequences of non-sterilizing intramuscular vaccines for variants, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... > Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant selection in vaccinated individuals.
anonuser123456 5y ago
This outlook ignores a critical factor. Intramuscular vaccine delivery did not confer high levels of mucosal immunity. However, subsequent infection of the vaccinated may provide excellent systemic protection while allowing mucosal immunity to naturally develop as a consequence of infection. If high levels of mucosal immunity develop as a result of breakthrough infection, that may go a long way towards reducing r0. Further, nasal delivery covid vaccines are underdevelopment. These may also provide mucosal immunity. So there is still a very plausible way out of the pandemic that includes the near eradication of the disease.
throwawaysea 5y ago
I certainly hope it isn't leading to a society where papers are checked and masks are always required. Although I am vaccinated, I feel vaccine mandates constitute a breach of bodily autonomy and medical privacy. As for masks - I find them stifling in more ways than one - it is hard to breathe, it fogs up glasses, it causes me to feel overheated, and it really diminishes human connection and exchange of emotions. I think the impact of masks on developing children who need natural socialization will be drastic and dangerous. So my take is that at some point, we just need to deal with it as a background event and move on. The infection fatality rate for COVID is incredibly low, particularly for those under 50. It is irrational to worry about it to the extent we are, since we don't typically worry about such rare possibilities. I am also betting that phenomenon like "long COVID" will either be found to be other conflating factors, or found to be a phenomenon associated with any illness. It's just that we're so focused on COVID as an entire species, that we're spotting all the little things we would normally ignore.
- yyyk 5y ago
  >The infection fatality rate for COVID is incredibly low, particularly for those under 50. The infection fatality rate is relatively low when hospitals aren't overwhelmed and when we have oxygen available, and let's not forget all the mask and vaccine measures you disparage. That rate isn't going to remain low with the 'I've got mine, %$#@! you' attitude some people have, when even the lowest cost intervention (like wearing a mask) is unacceptable. With no interventions, infections spike and the death rate will be higher. Ultimately, restrictions will remain until enough people have been vaccinated, either via the vaccine and/or in the 'natural' way. The attitude of some just means we'll all suffer for a bit longer.
- elif 5y ago
  if you don't question your bodily autonomy when you get a tetanus shot, chances are you are over-politicizing a fundamental and basic health function.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
>Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months So what I already do for influenza.
BjoernKW 5y ago
I've been asking those questions for about 16 months now and hardly anyone of those in charge is willing to even consider an answer. They just botch and bumble their way through from one lockdown to the next. The COVID-19 vaccines are a boon and a vital component for ending this crisis. However, they're not the panacea those in charge made them out to be. Make no mistake, those vaccines, particularly those of the mRNA variety are more successful and have been available much more quickly than one could've reasonably hoped them to be. Still, it should have been clear right from the start that virus variants against which vaccines are not as effective anymore are a distinct possibility. Hence, my suggestions for a "new normal" (though I dislike that term because it implies both that the world in general is static and that on the other hand we have to accept the current situation as the new default indefinitely) for the time being (that is until COVID-19 has become endemic and most of the population has built up at least some level of immunity - through vaccines or by "natural" means) are these: 1. getting vaccinated, if possible 2. getting booster shots and / or updated vaccines regularly, in case that's proven to be useful (the jury still being out on both counts) 3. wearing masks in certain settings, e.g., on public transport 4. the most important one: having everyone - vaccinated or not - tested for indoor gatherings or large-scale events (rather than prohibiting those outright) Other than that, life has to continue as normal: No further lockdowns, no social distancing, no civil rights restrictions. Unfortunately, and totally incomprehensibly, #4 seems to be highly controversial, with some countries now even shutting down their previous - if perhaps not exemplary then at least adequate - testing schemes or implementing truly asinine measures such as mandating people to pay for tests and only requiring those not vaccinated to be tested at all. Yeah, right. What could possibly go wrong? I suppose the rationale behind that one is: "No tests. No problem."
- hartator 5y ago
  Getting tested - have you? - is not neutral on your body. The nasal swab is sterilized by a carcinogen gas which exposure should be limited and you can’t avoid wrong gesture by a nurse physically damaging your nose. It’s fine time to time but not everyday.
  - BjoernKW 5y ago
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
Slightly off-topic: shouldn't the 'new normal' be to wear N95/N99 masks? We know they're far more effective, and there's been plenty of time to ramp up production. I don't see why the 'normal' option is to wear a non-medical mask. It's also surprising that societies are entirely incapable of doing a hard lockdown for 3 weeks with mandatory testing at the end. I imagine that would be enough to reduce the case count to near zero, but it seems this cannot be done at a national scale even with time to prepare. edit Turns out I'm not alone here, here's a Harvard professor pushing for mass use of N95 masks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/26/n95-masks-safest-next-best-options/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/26/n95-masks...
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Just asking: would they also be effective in a slightly clueless general public? Eg they only work when they are in your face, fitted, etc. It could be that cost/actual benefit looks worse when you factor poor usage.
  - hncurious 5y ago
    That's actually what Dr Fauci initially talked about with regard to the general public. With how masks are worn and used in practice, he was probably right. Fauci: There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face. LaPook: And can you get some schmutz, sort of staying inside there? Fauci: Of course, of course. But, when you think masks, you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gYAka7qSnM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gYAka7qSnM
    - dehrmann 5y ago
      Fauci later admitted to essentially lying to the public so there wasn't a shortage of masks for healthcare workers. https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirus https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-dire... > "Well, the reason for [not telling people to wear masks in March, 2020] is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply. And we wanted to make sure that the people namely, the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected." Laudable as his intentions may be, and while I doubt he makes it a habit, he lied.
polote 5y ago
Vaccinate all people greater than 40 years old, preferably anyone and resume a normal life. Even though the vaccine doesn't prevent to catch covid to high degree, it still prevent deaths and hospitalizations to more than 90% (whether Delta or not, and whether Aztrazaneca or Pfizer or Moderna) Long Covid seems to exists, but it is about 2-3% of cases so nothing to really worry about more than any other disease. Maybe at some point the vaccine won't protect from a new variant and things will change. But so far so good. And even at this point, Lockdowns and masks mania doesn't seem to be give a better output than asking citizen to be careful and try to limit meeting too many people (Sweden) Here for more details https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/why-covid-19-is-here-to-stay-and-why-you-shouldnt-worry-about-it/ https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/why-covid-19-is-her...
xboxnolifes 5y ago
I'm not sure if this is technically feasible, but maybe a yearly covid shot just gets added to the flu shot routine. Either through the same shot, or two shots in one visit.
- Talanes 5y ago
  Less than half of Americans get flu shots though.
corpMaverick 5y ago
We are better of if we vaccinate every 6-12 months. We are better of if we keep some social distance measures. So we should keep doing this as long as it is the better option. The goal is continue with our lives with the least damage from the virus.
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tedunangst 5y ago
Disappointing that nobody can provide a real answer. A third shot 6-8 months later seems to provide robust immunity. Same with measles or any other shot regime, which is administered over a course of several months, but not continuously and forever.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
Not only that, but I’m afraid this is the endgame new normal for a densely populated world. How do we avoid continuous new disease pandemics when we are tightly packed in like sardines? As part Native American, I am reminded of what happened when Europeans from a densely populated area came here. Estimates vary but maybe 90% died from the “new” diseases to them. The fact that Europeans weren’t decimated by native diseases makes me think that one of the prerequisites for societies free of disease is lots of empty space between people and limited travel. This will continually decrease with time in the anthropocene.
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mint2 5y ago
Our plan is to take easy precautions like masks until we stop having massive waves whenever they’re relaxed that fill up icus like in Alabama. Probably in a year we’ll be able to relax them without that happening. What do you propose? Are you against the current mask mandates?

aantix 5y ago

Take Vitamin D/C/Zinc/Niacin and build up natural immunity?

johnbaker92 5y ago
It's sad that this comment (and probably mine) downvoted despite being a reasonable long-term response to this virus. Instead of mandating this vaccine worldwide, why don't we focus on collectively building a better / stronger health that would prevent the large majority of severe cases?
- tcbawo 5y ago
  I haven't seen an evidence that supplements would prevent the majority of severe cases, or the neurological damage done (in even mild cases). Is this something backed up by data?
  - johnbaker92 5y ago
    Health goes beyond taking nutrients (although they might help). Here we're talking about exercise, nutrition, mental health etc: - None of those were advocated by governments during this pandemic. - Some measures (lockdowns, etc.) were detrimental to individual health and (imo) contributed to complications we've been seeing. This is generally backed up by common sense (which - just like the flu - has mysteriously disappeared in the past 2 years)
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      What's mysterious about the flu disappearing? The precautions taken to reduce COVID were extremely effective against influenza. Given that it was much more broadly circulating, and therefore a large percentage of the population had antibodies to dominant strains (more than COVID even now), one would expect masks and isolation to basically destroy it's spread no?
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        It's also possible that viral disease dynamics are just like that, with one virus dominating at a time (amongst this class of highly contagious respiratory viruses).
  - mrfusion 5y ago
    Is neurological damage in mild cases backed up by data? The only study I saw was based on self reporting and an Internet based IQ test. Also considering perhaps 30% of the world has had covid now (anyone have the exact figure?) that would be an unbelievable amount of brain damage. I’d think we’d be aware of that if one in three people had recent brain damage.
    - nradov 5y ago
      The CDC estimates that 36% of Americans have been infected so far.
    - tcbawo 5y ago
      I'm neither a researcher or doctor, but I've seen numerous articles that describe this. Anecdotally, I've had multiple people (acquaintances and family) suffer from neurological effects. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32696341/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32696341/ https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Current-Research/Coronavirus-and-NINDS/nervous-system https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Current-Research/Coronavirus-and-N...
      - mrfusion 5y ago
        Thanks for finding some papers but I’m not sure they support OP’s claim. I’ll admit I don’t understand the first one. Somehow they’re claiming covid causes Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s? How can we know that after less than two years? The second one is clear to mention “ Most people infected with SARS-CoV-2 virus will have no or mild to moderate symptoms associated with the brain or nervous system. However, most individuals hospitalized due to the virus do have symptoms related to the brain or nervous system, most commonly including muscle aches, headaches, dizziness, and altered taste and smell.” So They are claiming an effect but not for mild cases like OP said and not really claiming brain damage anyway.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    Anyything that makes your immune system work properly will help, the reason Covid is even a subject is that there is a silent epidemic of immunocompromised people, a large number of which are unaware that they are - the kind of people who routinely get sick in the winter, for instance. It's very strange that we are pretending that healthiness doesn't exist or can't be improved. It can, and rather easily and cheaply (yes, Vitamin D is one, but also, especially for Covid, anything that improves vascular function, as the etiology of Covid is closely linked to vascular health... which is where Niacin (vitamin B3), vitamin C, and reducing /eliminating sugar come in).
    - andrekandre 5y ago
      why does improving vascular function help with dealing with covid? > etiology of Covid is closely linked to vascular health... any links about that? im curious to take a look
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        If you look up "covid vascular" you'll find plenty of references. Seeing how it affects most people with chronic conditions associated with such problems (hypertension, diabetes), I'm convinced it's a correct assessment.
        andrekandre 5y ago
        interesting, thanks, ill take a look
- Florin_Andrei 5y ago
  It is downvoted because it's pseudo-science.
  - nradov 5y ago
    At least in the case of vitamin D it's hardly pseudoscience. Multiple clinical studies have found that hypovitaminosis D is a serious risk factor for COVID-19. https://vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/ https://vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/
    - Florin_Andrei 5y ago
      It is correlated, but I am not aware of even a single study that shows actual causal determination.
      - nradov 5y ago
        Are you claiming that you read all the studies linked above and none of them show actual causal determination? We can't really prove anything 100% in biology but the totality of evidence is very strong here.
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        I recall studies showing significant efficacy even in acute settings, which was slightly unexpected, at least to me.
      - protein_lense 5y ago
        This is not a study, but it does discuss the biochemistry of vitamin D and the role it plays in the immune system. It is left to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. COVID-19 and Vitamin D | Association Between Vitamin D Deficiency and COVID-19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1CaTv5-e4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1CaTv5-e4
  - johnbaker92 5y ago
    According to "science": - Lockdowns should have stopped covid. - Masks should have stopped covid. - Vaccines should have stopped covid. - "Health" passports and those ridiculous mandates should have stopped covid. The fact is, we're two years down the road and we're still talking about this virus - so "true" science (that advocated by governments / media I imagine?) is obviously not working. Time to take a step back and think for ourselves perhaps?
walterbell 5y ago
There's a social-acceptability phenomenon where people say one thing (e.g. in surveys) and do another (e.g. what they buy). Relatively early in 2020, some grocery and pharmacy shelves were completely emptied of Vit C/D/Zinc/Quercetin. When they were restocked, they would sell out again, even with per-customer quotas. This took place even with a complete news blackout on early treatments. As with HCQ/Ivermectin, we have decades of data showing very low risk of adverse effects from these early treatments. So the worst case is that people waste money on placebos. But there are studies showing that early treatment helps some (not all) patients to recover more quickly. Just as we don't know why some people are injured by vaccines, we don't know why some people are not helped by early intervention with supplements. More studies are need for both, including funding for autopsies of those who die and retroactive genomic sequencing of virus/vaccine/supplement samples collected from the most severely affected cases. India (origin of Delta) provides comparative data because some areas have rejected Ivermectin while other areas have embraced it. This is a ZH (sorry) article, but it uses data from Johns Hopkins, https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/indias-ivermectin-blackout https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/indias-ivermectin-blackou... > This data shows how Ivermectin knocked their COVID-19 cases and deaths - which we know were Delta Variant - down to almost zero within weeks. A population comparable to the US went from about 35,000 cases and 350 deaths per day to nearly ZERO within weeks of adding Ivermectin to their protocol. > Let us look at the August 5 numbers from Uttar Pradesh with 2/3 of our population. Uttar Pradesh, using Ivermectin, had a total of 26 new cases and exactly THREE deaths. The US without Ivermectin has precisely 4889 times as many daily cases and 191 times as many deaths as Uttar Pradesh with Ivermectin. At present, there are billions of dollars of economic incentives for suppression of early treatment, because vaccines are still under EUA that could be questioned by the availability of therapeutics with decades of safety data. If the FDA fully approves one or more vaccines in September 2021, perhaps there will be more economic incentives to perform research and studies of therapeutics. Merck (original holder of the Ivermectin patent) is developing a new patented therapeutic for early treatment of Covid. Time will tell whether this is a genuinely new treatment or an "evergreen" variant of Ivermectin to obtain patent revenue. Either way, it would mean that at least one Big Pharma company has an economic incentive to promote early therapeutics for Covid, which could provide some balance to the currently polarized treatment landscape.
- 5y ago

sdze 5y ago

Too bad that the cold and influenza flu are not comparable with Covid-19.

schmichael 5y ago

I already get vaccinated every 12 months for the flu, so that seems like a fine plan to me.

seunosewa 5y ago
Perhaps they could add it to the flu shot.
walterbell 5y ago
We have many years of data on flu vaccine safety. Should the flu vaccine be combined with newer vaccines which have numerically less safety data?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- stopping 5y ago
  Sample size isn't the problem you think it is. The difference in statistical confidence between sample sizes of a hundred million (COVID vaccine doses) and a billion (flu vaccines) is basically zero. Perhaps you could try to make a case that we need more time to evaluate the long-term effects of the vaccines. Historically speaking, we know that side effects for any vaccine are incredibly rare after more than a few months. mRNA vaccine technology has been researched for decades and there are no indicators that there are long-term complications resulting from their use. Other vaccine technologies show similar long-term safety.
xienze 5y ago
Why get the flu vaccine anymore? If you believe official reports, it’s basically been eliminated by virtue of simple mask mandates that everyone swears no one is following.
- schmichael 5y ago
  > Why get the flu vaccine anymore? Because it's safe and easy. I have immuno-compromised friends and elderly family members. Vaccines are almost literally the least I can do to help keep them safe. I have kids and taking care of sick kids is awful. Also I really really really hate having the flu personally. Bleh. > If you believe official reports, it’s basically been eliminated by virtue of simple mask mandates that everyone swears no one is following. I have not seen official reports that determined the drop in flu was due to masks. I would assume the drop in flu was due to many factors combined: schools and businesses going remote, other physical distancing, more people getting the flu vaccine to avoid getting sick and potentially straining our strained healthcare system, masking, and who knows what else... ...at any rate I expect the flu will return as kids go back to school, workers return to offices, etc. I'll keep getting vaccinated for the flu as long as my doctor recommends it for my reasons stated above.

delecti 5y ago

> Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks An annual Flu and COVID shot seems perfectly reasonable. Wearing masks in public is already normal (or at least not uncommon) in many places, and I don't have a problem with where I live being one of those places.

gjs278 5y ago
fuck off. im not getting anymore flu shots or covid shots. and im definitely not wearing a mask. I only exclusively go to places that let you in the door with a mask on and then you can immediately take it off.
betwixthewires 5y ago
What if I have a problem with where I live being one of those places? Or another question in a similar vein, what if I don't have a problem wearing a mask but my neighbor does? Also I'd point out, seasonal flu vaccines are not mandatory and in most places have a low vaccination rate. Would you be fine with a non mandatory covid vaccine?
- delecti 5y ago
  I think that if seasonal flu vaccines start being combined with seasonable COVID vaccines that the rate would go up. And unfortunately I think mandatory vaccines would be unacceptable to too many people to think it's a viable option. I don't have an answer to masks, though I think they'll get more and more normalized as time goes on. Even if COVID were to be basically suppressed, I'd probably still keep wearing them on public transit.
- bertil 5y ago
  > What if I have a problem with where I live being one of those places? > Or another question in a similar vein, what if I don't have a problem wearing a mask but my neighbor does? Smocking raised the same questions.

baxtr 5y ago

Why indefinitely? If that was the case we would need shots for the other cold viruses as well, which we don't. As you say, Sars-2 will turn into an endemic virus and thus we will get used to it over time, death rates will drop and it will turn into a cold. There is absolutely no historic precedent to think it will turn out differently.

chinathrow 5y ago
If this is so clear, then my current question is how long would that take?
- baxtr 5y ago
  I would say 3-5 years without vaccines. See for example the 1889 pandemic [1], which might have also been induced by a coronavirus. It's hard to say with a vaccine since there is no real precedent. If I had to guess I'd say 1-3 years? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889–1890_pandemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889–1890_pandemic
Trasmatta 5y ago
We get shots for the flu every year (or at least we should). That's the historical precedent.
- pengaru 5y ago
  Influenza is a different virus which mutates aggressively (recombinant), I'm not under the impression sars-cov2 is similar in this regard.
  - raphlinus 5y ago
    Buckle up. Quoted tweet[1] below: Congrats to Ben Jackson, @maciekboni, @viralverity, @AineToole, @robertson_lab, @EvolveDotZoo, @arambaut et al for their recent Cell paper. Rock solid evidence of alpha/non-alpha recombination in #SARSCoV2 in the UK. https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00984-3 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00984-3 [1]: https://twitter.com/MichaelWorobey/status/1428515836629716999 https://twitter.com/MichaelWorobey/status/142851583662971699...

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

Due to COVID not mutating as quickly, I think the end game is everyone getting immune, through a combination of repeated vaccinations and infections.

chitowneats 5y ago
What evidence do we have that covid "doesn't mutate as quickly"? There have been at least 3 distinct variants, separate from the original strain, since the virus was detected in late 2019 / early 2020.
- bparsons 5y ago
  Relative to perhaps, the seasonal flu.
- bonzini 5y ago
  These variants have their most severe symptoms blocked by the same vaccine with very similar effectiveness. Influenza viruses, on the other hand, undergo recombination in such a way that the vaccine has to be engineered every year based on guesses of what the prevalent strain is going to be.
avereveard 5y ago
immunization doesn't seem to last long enough for this plan, it will just increase the mutation pressure.
ldjkfkdsjnv 5y ago
I got covid last march, and got it again one month ago. I was very sick for three weeks on my second covid infection. I think we are about to face the harsh reality that covid is never going away, and immunity and is never going to happen. The virus will mutate and find new ways to infect
- schmichael 5y ago
  > I think we are about to face... I feel like this is what most experts were saying from near the beginning: this is not a few months problem. This is an ongoing problem that will require us to adapt just as it adapts. I remember many articles in 2020 projecting what the virus might look like 5 or 8 years out. Lockdowns and other extreme measures were about flattening infection curves to keep from overwhelming health systems, not about eradicating the virus outright. Masks and distancing are about getting the virus to a manageable infection rate to minimize impact on our new normal lives. Vaccines are the only way out without high mortality and extreme pressure on our health systems. Whether it requires vaccines like polio (one or two and safe forever) or flu (annual) is yet to be determined AFAIK. It seems like somewhere in the middle is most likely at least for many years to come.

goodluckchuck 5y ago

Everything I've heard about how viruses evolve says that they get milder within the host population. The host's resistance keeps increasing as the virus mutates and the population is exposed to the new mutations, and over time this allows the virus to diverge from other populations... where the virus isn't spreading. E.g. diseases can evolve in Europe then spread to Native American populations. Evolve in bats, or apes, then spread to humans. Now that this virus has shown that humanity has become one population... and it will spread everywhere if we let it... we should let it. If we do strict testing, vaccination, etc. and prevent international travel, and otherwise fiercely prevent the virus from spreading across populations, then we'll have just created a situation where the virus could mutate to become harmful. As long as we do nothing we're safe.

munk-a 5y ago
It's absolutely horrific to bring up Native American populations considering the estimates on population loss range from 25% to 90% with most folks erring toward the 90% end of the range. As terrible as COVID has been we're no where near the level where - as a middle aged person with kids and parents[1] - it's expected that you'll be the only one to survive out of your extended family. Estimates about the fatality of COVID put it way below the small pox epidemic in North America but that's an absolutely terrible example to draw on. 1. Assume your parents had two children - you both married and had two kids - that's ten people so choose one to survive (obviously epidemics don't actually work this way, but I've found it's the clearest way to demonstrate proportional mortality rates.

pragmaticalien8 5y ago

Just like any vaccine, I suppose better generation of vaccine will emerge. https://athometest.com/blog/a-next-generation-sars-cov-2-vaccine/ https://athometest.com/blog/a-next-generation-sars-cov-2-vac...

nradov 5y ago

Same as with what probably happened with HCoV-OC43, another betacoronavirus very similar to SARS-CoV-2. Evidence indicates that it caused a worldwide pandemic that killed a lot of people starting in 1889. Now it's endemic. Most of us catch it when we're young and healthy which gives us partial immunity later. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1751-7915.13889 https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/175... Eventually almost all of us will be infected by some variant of SARS-CoV-2. Fortunately the vaccines are very effective at preventing death.

criticaltinker 5y ago
> Fortunately the vaccines are very effective at preventing death Yes individuals who have been vaccinated or recovered from natural infection will have durable immunity and significantly lower risk of severe outcomes like hospitalization and death. [5][6] The real question: is mass vaccination effective at preventing the spread and increasing trasmission/virulence of variants of concern? A growing body of the scientific literature and evidence suggests not. [1][2][3][4] This doesn't mean we shouldn't be using vaccines, rather we should use them in a highly targeted way, and supplemented by other therapeutic modalities. [1] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ [2] Can we predict the limits of SARS-CoV-2 variants and their phenotypic consequences? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... [3] Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fj... [4] Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016.2562 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016... [5] Longitudinal analysis shows durable and broad immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection with persisting antibody responses and memory B and T cells https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-37... [6] Rapid induction of antigen-specific CD4+ T cells is associated with coordinated humoral and cellular immune responses to SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(21)00308-3 https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(21)00308-3

jdavis703 5y ago

Yeah, as long as COVID-19 fills up hospitals we should do this. Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. I had untreated kidney stones for about a week at the peak of the pandemic. When I was in the middle of an attack I could not work, the pain was too severe. I was missing several hours of work everyday just dealing with pain. I finally got to the emergency room which did basic imaging and gave me painkillers and muscle relaxers. I didn’t get the actual stones removed until 6 months later! So yes, I’d rather vaccinate and mask up then be denied healthcare.

walterbell 5y ago
> Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. A non-trivial percentage of healthcare workers were infected in 2020 and recovered with natural immunity to Covid. Some of those feel strongly enough about vaccine mandates that they are prepared to move jurisdictions or retire, which would exacerbate existing staffing shortages in some hospitals. If we don't want more hospital shortages, we should reconsider unnecessary vaccine mandates for those with hard-earned natural immunity, which includes nasal/mucosal immunity, unlike intramuscular vaccines that were developed for symptom reduction, https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccines/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/covid-intranasal-vaccine... > Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.” The fact that the vaccines don’t block all infections and don’t prevent vaccinated people from transmitting isn’t a big surprise, said Kathryn Edwards, a vaccine expert at Vanderbilt School of Medicine. The UK's SAGE also commented on nasal (inhaler) vaccine development and the consequences of non-sterilizing intramuscular vaccines for variants, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evolution-of-sars-cov-2-26-july-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti... > Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant selection in vaccinated individuals.

anonuser123456 5y ago

This outlook ignores a critical factor. Intramuscular vaccine delivery did not confer high levels of mucosal immunity. However, subsequent infection of the vaccinated may provide excellent systemic protection while allowing mucosal immunity to naturally develop as a consequence of infection. If high levels of mucosal immunity develop as a result of breakthrough infection, that may go a long way towards reducing r0. Further, nasal delivery covid vaccines are underdevelopment. These may also provide mucosal immunity. So there is still a very plausible way out of the pandemic that includes the near eradication of the disease.

throwawaysea 5y ago

I certainly hope it isn't leading to a society where papers are checked and masks are always required. Although I am vaccinated, I feel vaccine mandates constitute a breach of bodily autonomy and medical privacy. As for masks - I find them stifling in more ways than one - it is hard to breathe, it fogs up glasses, it causes me to feel overheated, and it really diminishes human connection and exchange of emotions. I think the impact of masks on developing children who need natural socialization will be drastic and dangerous. So my take is that at some point, we just need to deal with it as a background event and move on. The infection fatality rate for COVID is incredibly low, particularly for those under 50. It is irrational to worry about it to the extent we are, since we don't typically worry about such rare possibilities. I am also betting that phenomenon like "long COVID" will either be found to be other conflating factors, or found to be a phenomenon associated with any illness. It's just that we're so focused on COVID as an entire species, that we're spotting all the little things we would normally ignore.

yyyk 5y ago
>The infection fatality rate for COVID is incredibly low, particularly for those under 50. The infection fatality rate is relatively low when hospitals aren't overwhelmed and when we have oxygen available, and let's not forget all the mask and vaccine measures you disparage. That rate isn't going to remain low with the 'I've got mine, %$#@! you' attitude some people have, when even the lowest cost intervention (like wearing a mask) is unacceptable. With no interventions, infections spike and the death rate will be higher. Ultimately, restrictions will remain until enough people have been vaccinated, either via the vaccine and/or in the 'natural' way. The attitude of some just means we'll all suffer for a bit longer.
elif 5y ago
if you don't question your bodily autonomy when you get a tetanus shot, chances are you are over-politicizing a fundamental and basic health function.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

>Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months So what I already do for influenza.

BjoernKW 5y ago

I've been asking those questions for about 16 months now and hardly anyone of those in charge is willing to even consider an answer. They just botch and bumble their way through from one lockdown to the next. The COVID-19 vaccines are a boon and a vital component for ending this crisis. However, they're not the panacea those in charge made them out to be. Make no mistake, those vaccines, particularly those of the mRNA variety are more successful and have been available much more quickly than one could've reasonably hoped them to be. Still, it should have been clear right from the start that virus variants against which vaccines are not as effective anymore are a distinct possibility. Hence, my suggestions for a "new normal" (though I dislike that term because it implies both that the world in general is static and that on the other hand we have to accept the current situation as the new default indefinitely) for the time being (that is until COVID-19 has become endemic and most of the population has built up at least some level of immunity - through vaccines or by "natural" means) are these: 1. getting vaccinated, if possible 2. getting booster shots and / or updated vaccines regularly, in case that's proven to be useful (the jury still being out on both counts) 3. wearing masks in certain settings, e.g., on public transport 4. the most important one: having everyone - vaccinated or not - tested for indoor gatherings or large-scale events (rather than prohibiting those outright) Other than that, life has to continue as normal: No further lockdowns, no social distancing, no civil rights restrictions. Unfortunately, and totally incomprehensibly, #4 seems to be highly controversial, with some countries now even shutting down their previous - if perhaps not exemplary then at least adequate - testing schemes or implementing truly asinine measures such as mandating people to pay for tests and only requiring those not vaccinated to be tested at all. Yeah, right. What could possibly go wrong? I suppose the rationale behind that one is: "No tests. No problem."

hartator 5y ago
Getting tested - have you? - is not neutral on your body. The nasal swab is sterilized by a carcinogen gas which exposure should be limited and you can’t avoid wrong gesture by a nurse physically damaging your nose. It’s fine time to time but not everyday.
- BjoernKW 5y ago

MaxBarraclough 5y ago

Slightly off-topic: shouldn't the 'new normal' be to wear N95/N99 masks? We know they're far more effective, and there's been plenty of time to ramp up production. I don't see why the 'normal' option is to wear a non-medical mask. It's also surprising that societies are entirely incapable of doing a hard lockdown for 3 weeks with mandatory testing at the end. I imagine that would be enough to reduce the case count to near zero, but it seems this cannot be done at a national scale even with time to prepare. edit Turns out I'm not alone here, here's a Harvard professor pushing for mass use of N95 masks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/26/n95-masks-safest-next-best-options/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/26/n95-masks...

rich_sasha 5y ago
Just asking: would they also be effective in a slightly clueless general public? Eg they only work when they are in your face, fitted, etc. It could be that cost/actual benefit looks worse when you factor poor usage.
- hncurious 5y ago
  That's actually what Dr Fauci initially talked about with regard to the general public. With how masks are worn and used in practice, he was probably right. Fauci: There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face. LaPook: And can you get some schmutz, sort of staying inside there? Fauci: Of course, of course. But, when you think masks, you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gYAka7qSnM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gYAka7qSnM
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    Fauci later admitted to essentially lying to the public so there wasn't a shortage of masks for healthcare workers. https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirus https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-dire... > "Well, the reason for [not telling people to wear masks in March, 2020] is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply. And we wanted to make sure that the people namely, the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected." Laudable as his intentions may be, and while I doubt he makes it a habit, he lied.

polote 5y ago

Vaccinate all people greater than 40 years old, preferably anyone and resume a normal life. Even though the vaccine doesn't prevent to catch covid to high degree, it still prevent deaths and hospitalizations to more than 90% (whether Delta or not, and whether Aztrazaneca or Pfizer or Moderna) Long Covid seems to exists, but it is about 2-3% of cases so nothing to really worry about more than any other disease. Maybe at some point the vaccine won't protect from a new variant and things will change. But so far so good. And even at this point, Lockdowns and masks mania doesn't seem to be give a better output than asking citizen to be careful and try to limit meeting too many people (Sweden) Here for more details https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/why-covid-19-is-here-to-stay-and-why-you-shouldnt-worry-about-it/ https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/why-covid-19-is-her...

xboxnolifes 5y ago

I'm not sure if this is technically feasible, but maybe a yearly covid shot just gets added to the flu shot routine. Either through the same shot, or two shots in one visit.

Talanes 5y ago
Less than half of Americans get flu shots though.

corpMaverick 5y ago

We are better of if we vaccinate every 6-12 months. We are better of if we keep some social distance measures. So we should keep doing this as long as it is the better option. The goal is continue with our lives with the least damage from the virus.

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tedunangst 5y ago

Disappointing that nobody can provide a real answer. A third shot 6-8 months later seems to provide robust immunity. Same with measles or any other shot regime, which is administered over a course of several months, but not continuously and forever.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

Not only that, but I’m afraid this is the endgame new normal for a densely populated world. How do we avoid continuous new disease pandemics when we are tightly packed in like sardines? As part Native American, I am reminded of what happened when Europeans from a densely populated area came here. Estimates vary but maybe 90% died from the “new” diseases to them. The fact that Europeans weren’t decimated by native diseases makes me think that one of the prerequisites for societies free of disease is lots of empty space between people and limited travel. This will continually decrease with time in the anthropocene.

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mint2 5y ago

Our plan is to take easy precautions like masks until we stop having massive waves whenever they’re relaxed that fill up icus like in Alabama. Probably in a year we’ll be able to relax them without that happening. What do you propose? Are you against the current mask mandates?