5 ms·

> Apple is trying to stave off more heavy-handed gov intervention. This is an interesting and charitable interpretation, but if so, then this tactic will fail.

> Apple is trying to stave off more heavy-handed gov intervention. This is an interesting and charitable interpretation, but if so, then this tactic will fail. As others here have pointed out: with this capability in place, the only thing stopping them from total intrusion is now merely policy. And that's scary and dangerous.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
Yeah and FYI it is not my position on the issue and adding because I found the thread curious. I just can’t even begin to imagine what a gigantic company like Apple’s real government relations are like however.
matwood 5y ago
I think what is making people uncomfortable is the realization it's always been policy.
- Macha 5y ago
  You could argue that it's policy to develop or not develop this feature, but if the feature doesn't exist, you could always refuse the update that provides it, whereas if apple adds tiananmen-square.jpg to this list in China after the feature is out there, then you don't know until you're already screwed.
  - matwood 5y ago
    The list is only updated with new versions of iOS. So if that's a concern wait until new versions are compared against old prior to updating. Downloading the list outside an iOS update would be a new 'feature' just for China. If we're in that mode, then Apple could also have just added scanning for only China. Finally, the list is an intersection from at least two jurisdictions. I think there is plenty of good debate to have around this feature, but I also think it's important to start with the discussing the feature as is today.
    - Macha 5y ago
      I have to disagree - I think with the ease of extending the feature, and the track record of similar features being extended, we need to consider the long term implications. Not doing so in previous instances is how we got UK ISP filters for CSAM extended to copyrighted material, for example.
    - kalleboo 5y ago
      Apple doesn't even need to add scanning "just for China", all Chinese data is stored on the servers of a Chinese partner.
      - matwood 5y ago
        Correct, but people keep pointing to China as a state entity that will abuse the new system.
- shuckles 5y ago
  A lot of people who claim that this feature made it “easy” to scope creep don’t appreciate that Apple escrows everyone’s keys for its “end to end encrypted” messaging service. Who would be able to tell if they dropped a couple extra keys in that list? I can think of dozens of security and privacy claims on iOS that are a simple configuration change away from being totally defeated.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago

Yeah and FYI it is not my position on the issue and adding because I found the thread curious. I just can’t even begin to imagine what a gigantic company like Apple’s real government relations are like however.

matwood 5y ago

I think what is making people uncomfortable is the realization it's always been policy.

Macha 5y ago
You could argue that it's policy to develop or not develop this feature, but if the feature doesn't exist, you could always refuse the update that provides it, whereas if apple adds tiananmen-square.jpg to this list in China after the feature is out there, then you don't know until you're already screwed.
- matwood 5y ago
  The list is only updated with new versions of iOS. So if that's a concern wait until new versions are compared against old prior to updating. Downloading the list outside an iOS update would be a new 'feature' just for China. If we're in that mode, then Apple could also have just added scanning for only China. Finally, the list is an intersection from at least two jurisdictions. I think there is plenty of good debate to have around this feature, but I also think it's important to start with the discussing the feature as is today.
  - Macha 5y ago
    I have to disagree - I think with the ease of extending the feature, and the track record of similar features being extended, we need to consider the long term implications. Not doing so in previous instances is how we got UK ISP filters for CSAM extended to copyrighted material, for example.
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    Apple doesn't even need to add scanning "just for China", all Chinese data is stored on the servers of a Chinese partner.
    - matwood 5y ago
      Correct, but people keep pointing to China as a state entity that will abuse the new system.
shuckles 5y ago
A lot of people who claim that this feature made it “easy” to scope creep don’t appreciate that Apple escrows everyone’s keys for its “end to end encrypted” messaging service. Who would be able to tell if they dropped a couple extra keys in that list? I can think of dozens of security and privacy claims on iOS that are a simple configuration change away from being totally defeated.