7 ms·

>Side note, I don’t know why porn is so shameful Is it really such a mystery? Mostly every religion prohibits sexual freedom and most every government has dee

>Side note, I don’t know why porn is so shameful Is it really such a mystery? Mostly every religion prohibits sexual freedom and most every government has deeply religious members in the legislature. There is no separation of the church's morals and political ones. Which means yes, I'm suggesting a ban on religion in the political space. I don't mean you can't be a politician if you're religious, I mean you should be fired if you ever fall back on religious grounds while executing your responsibility. Strange how the more religious the political leadership, the less freedoms you find in that society, regardless of religion (and like all generalisations, there are plenty of exceptions to that sweeping statement). This is really not meant as an assault on religion, but let's not pretend that Church is not a political institution. You can have a legislative and judicial political leadership, or a religious one. But I don't believe it's possible to have both (and call yourself a free country)

eru 5y ago
Are you perhaps projecting a US experience? In the UK, the head of state is also the head of the state church, and things aren't too bad. In Germany, the government is currently run by the Christian Democratic Union (and a few allies), and things seem reasonably secular.
- uCantCauseUCant 5y ago
  That party is deeply secular. Which is why this alternative formed: https://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partei_Bibeltreuer_Christen https://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partei_Bibeltreuer_Christen
- Vosporos 5y ago
  The head of state is not the head of government, but you may be interested in this recent judgement to overturn a ban of some sexual acts in porn https://uk.news.yahoo.com/violent-porn-including-bdsm-no-longer-illegal-uk-long-performers-consenting-155930303.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/violent-porn-including-bdsm-no-lon...
- arethuza 5y ago
  The UK doesn't really have a "state church" - arguably England does, but that's only part of the UK (albeit by far the largest part).
- ge0rg 5y ago
  UK: https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/25/banned-gay-porn-uk/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/25/banned-gay-porn-uk/ Germany: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/germany-porn-laws-age-checks https://www.wired.co.uk/article/germany-porn-laws-age-checks
  - nailer 5y ago
    That was overturned.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    gay porn was not banned in the UK, but rather things associated with violence, aggression or non-consent; as such I fail to see the link to religion. I'm not sure how requiring age check relates to being non-secular either. I'm not religious, but I don't think children should watch porn.
    - int_19h 5y ago
      UK bans a lot of perfectly consensual BDSM porn, for example.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        > violence, aggression or non-consent
- SXX 5y ago
  UK is as close to police / surveillance state as it can get: a lot of things are benned, privacy is severely limited, internet is censored, strong crypto isn't exactly legal (even though no one been thrown in jail, yet), banking banned crypto and have severe KYC requirements, etc. So in many areas UK has less freedoms than poor authoritarian countries. I cant say anything about Germany since I havent lived there.
  - nailer 5y ago
    Have a reference for strong crypto being illegal? I know the government store a month of all our personal correspondence (due to the snoopers charter) but Afaict crypto is still legal.
    - SXX 5y ago
      It is legal, but with caveat that you have to provide decryption keys on court order and refusing to do so is illegal. It wasn't heavily used against anyone as far as I aware, but it's can always change.
  - shrikant 5y ago
    It's fascinating to me that you've used "crypto" as synecdoche for both cryptography and cryptocurrency in successive parts of the same sentence!
    - SXX 5y ago
      Pardon me. I didnt put much mind into the fact this could be confusing.
      - ryantgtg 5y ago
        It’s ok. You were just being a little crypto.
    - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
      TIL what synechdoche means ...
- account42 5y ago
  In the UK you literally have to ask your ISP before you are allowed to see porn (or use a different name server). And Germany is far from secular too - for example church taxes (even if you can opt out) are still collected via the government. There is also much more censorship in video games than in most other countries.
  - regularfry 5y ago
    > In the UK you literally have to ask your ISP before you are allowed to see porn (or use a different name server). Or use a better ISP.
  - jonathantf2 5y ago
    Only the big 5 ISPs, I've got a small local one and it's pretty much completely unrestricted
  - josefx 5y ago
    > for example church taxes (even if you can opt out) are still collected via the government. In other news US post office caught delivering mail to churches, synagogues and mosques. Religious conspiracy or completely normal? > even if you can opt out You had to be opted in in the first place, you don't get randomly assigned to one of the religious groups that signed up for that service. > There is also much more censorship in video games than in most other countries. Gotta love how quickly school shooters got blamed on video games. Can't blame the government, can't blame the poor parents who were barely even aware of their kids existence in the months leading up to the shooting, lets blame and censor games the kid never played.
    - TomSwirly 5y ago
      > In other news US post office caught delivering mail to churches, synagogues and mosques. You have GOT to be joking! Do you not see the difference between the government delivering postal mail to everyone, and the government collecting money for churches only - money that you have to explicitly opt-out of giving? Will the government collect debts that other people owe me? Hell, no! So why should the government collecting church taxes for them?
- sunshineforever 5y ago
  I've just learned about the UK internet blocks. Is it true that torrent sites are blocked for adults and consensual BDSM like spanking is considered illegal pornography? I can't really believe it till I hear it from a person. I had no idea. This completely changes my view of the UK and the world suddenly seems much darker.
- bennyelv 5y ago
  Apart from the fact that I can't go to a supermarket at 5pm on a Sunday, of course.
  - eru 5y ago
    Yes, though from what I can tell that's mostly been defended by the unions now?
regularfry 5y ago
It's not the political leadership, it's the financial levers. Visa and Mastercard, specifically. Yes, there's an overlap there, but your use of the expression "a ban on religion in the political space" highlights the problem. To frame it first as a political problem in the sense of political parties and professional politicians misses where the harm is being done; and to expand the definition of "political space" in your ban to include private financial operators would ban religion entirely. And that's also not possible to do while calling yourself a free country.
TimonKnigge 5y ago
People's political views are generally interwoven with their notion of morality and in the case of the religious, that morality is informed by their religion. The idea that you can separate religion and politics is misguided at best.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Also, even if you remove religion something else will surely take its place. It seems that notions of aggressive conventionality and "crush the unclean" are somewhat baked into a percentage of society, and I definitely think the really hostile climate of the pandemic has added evidence to this theory. There's always going to be a nasty, moralistic, curtain-twitcher segment of society no matter what name or organisation they give it. Sometimes they hide behind religion, sometimes they hide behind politics, sometimes it's another label entirely but what they all have in common is an excessive bias when it comes to the emotion of disgust. I'm certainly not anti-religious (I'm no atheist myself), but I'm very anti-moral crusading against the business of consenting adults whatever form it takes.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  The Unholy Trinity: State, Church and the Market. Despite the common belief to the contrary, they can never be truly separated. They're only distinct in the sense a continuous multimodal distribution has "distinct" modes - the boundaries are fuzzy. Ultimately, they all serve the goal of social coordination, and they all work with means of coercing people to do things for other people.
vrotaru 5y ago
> Is it really such a mystery? Powerful "Blame your political opponents" move and damn those Chesterton fences. On a more serious note, it is not just porn and it's all about gene survival. Men who do not care about the sexual freedom of their partners tend to got the way of Dodo. (for obvious reasons). But I grant you that they may a live a more pleasant and relaxed life.
- frenchyatwork 5y ago
  > Men who do not care about the sexual freedom of their partners tend to got the way of Dodo. I can't speak for others, but my partner and I have a monogamous relationship because we like each other. We don't need government coercion. (edited to make it sound less ominous)
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
> I'm suggesting a ban on religion in the political space. Religions are just old ideologies centered on an anthropomorphic metaphor. It's not possible to exist without ideology -- even if it's something neoliberal and pared-down. And, people will create institutions to provide them with additional structure, if the State isn't giving it to them. They'll organize around a priest, or a VP of DEI; they'll choose a holy book (Atlas Shrugged, the Koran, Das Kapital), and so on. And, lo and behold, those alternative structures will start coercing people too. > prohibits sexual freedom The older I get, the more I think "freedom" is a trap. What is the alcoholic's freedom to drink? The procrastinator's freedom to watch YouTube videos? Odysseus, before sailing past the Sirens, was wise enough to ask his sailors to tie him to the mast. I know you say you're self-motivated, but how many of you would really accomplish much without at least a little pressure from a boss, from perf review, or from your peers at least? "But I'm the CEO!", you say. Well, do you ever work harder as you prep for a board meeting? I will do a dangerous thing now and, although essentially secular, make an Old Testament reference: What of Onan's freedom from responsibility for Tamar (i.e., his choice to leave her abandoned after Er's death), freedom from responsibility for the children he would have had with her? (People have myopically and stupidly focused on the "mechanics" of that story while missing the point.) What if the consequences of your "freedom" don't hit you for many years? What if, as an individual, you simply don't have enough time in your life to make the mistake and learn from it? I know a few people who were "free" to completely fuck up their lives, and they're belatedly figuring it out now, usually when it's too late.
- dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
  I'd like to start by saying I respect your arguments. Freedom is a very multifaceted word. On one hand, it means being free from coercion from others to do or not do what you want. On the other, it also means being free to do what you want without being forced into it by your own mind. Most people have no freedom over their own minds, they would be slaves even if no laws applied to them and they had infinite money. Restricting physical freedom to guide those people even makes sense, as I would say those people are the majority. But why the fuck would I accept that? I choose what I do and what I feel, why should I submit to others rules "for my own good" when my own mind has shown itself capable of choosing the correct option even when it hurts? Why should I limit my potential so every idiot who can't go 5 seconds without his little dopamine hits won't find a way to kill himself by the time he's 40? Why are the lives of the unaccomplished masses more important than my own? Admittedly, this isn't a huge problem in my life, since to quote the New Testament, "if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move". Yet I feel like this kind of paternalism stunts the growth of those who would one day learn true freedom from themselves too. If you are shepherded into behaving, you do not learn why one must behave that way.

eru 5y ago

Are you perhaps projecting a US experience? In the UK, the head of state is also the head of the state church, and things aren't too bad. In Germany, the government is currently run by the Christian Democratic Union (and a few allies), and things seem reasonably secular.

uCantCauseUCant 5y ago
That party is deeply secular. Which is why this alternative formed: https://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partei_Bibeltreuer_Christen https://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partei_Bibeltreuer_Christen
Vosporos 5y ago
The head of state is not the head of government, but you may be interested in this recent judgement to overturn a ban of some sexual acts in porn https://uk.news.yahoo.com/violent-porn-including-bdsm-no-longer-illegal-uk-long-performers-consenting-155930303.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/violent-porn-including-bdsm-no-lon...
arethuza 5y ago
The UK doesn't really have a "state church" - arguably England does, but that's only part of the UK (albeit by far the largest part).
ge0rg 5y ago
UK: https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/25/banned-gay-porn-uk/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/25/banned-gay-porn-uk/ Germany: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/germany-porn-laws-age-checks https://www.wired.co.uk/article/germany-porn-laws-age-checks
- nailer 5y ago
  That was overturned.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  gay porn was not banned in the UK, but rather things associated with violence, aggression or non-consent; as such I fail to see the link to religion. I'm not sure how requiring age check relates to being non-secular either. I'm not religious, but I don't think children should watch porn.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    UK bans a lot of perfectly consensual BDSM porn, for example.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      > violence, aggression or non-consent
SXX 5y ago
UK is as close to police / surveillance state as it can get: a lot of things are benned, privacy is severely limited, internet is censored, strong crypto isn't exactly legal (even though no one been thrown in jail, yet), banking banned crypto and have severe KYC requirements, etc. So in many areas UK has less freedoms than poor authoritarian countries. I cant say anything about Germany since I havent lived there.
- nailer 5y ago
  Have a reference for strong crypto being illegal? I know the government store a month of all our personal correspondence (due to the snoopers charter) but Afaict crypto is still legal.
  - SXX 5y ago
    It is legal, but with caveat that you have to provide decryption keys on court order and refusing to do so is illegal. It wasn't heavily used against anyone as far as I aware, but it's can always change.
- shrikant 5y ago
  It's fascinating to me that you've used "crypto" as synecdoche for both cryptography and cryptocurrency in successive parts of the same sentence!
  - SXX 5y ago
    Pardon me. I didnt put much mind into the fact this could be confusing.
    - ryantgtg 5y ago
      It’s ok. You were just being a little crypto.
  - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
    TIL what synechdoche means ...
account42 5y ago
In the UK you literally have to ask your ISP before you are allowed to see porn (or use a different name server). And Germany is far from secular too - for example church taxes (even if you can opt out) are still collected via the government. There is also much more censorship in video games than in most other countries.
- regularfry 5y ago
  > In the UK you literally have to ask your ISP before you are allowed to see porn (or use a different name server). Or use a better ISP.
- jonathantf2 5y ago
  Only the big 5 ISPs, I've got a small local one and it's pretty much completely unrestricted
- josefx 5y ago
  > for example church taxes (even if you can opt out) are still collected via the government. In other news US post office caught delivering mail to churches, synagogues and mosques. Religious conspiracy or completely normal? > even if you can opt out You had to be opted in in the first place, you don't get randomly assigned to one of the religious groups that signed up for that service. > There is also much more censorship in video games than in most other countries. Gotta love how quickly school shooters got blamed on video games. Can't blame the government, can't blame the poor parents who were barely even aware of their kids existence in the months leading up to the shooting, lets blame and censor games the kid never played.
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    > In other news US post office caught delivering mail to churches, synagogues and mosques. You have GOT to be joking! Do you not see the difference between the government delivering postal mail to everyone, and the government collecting money for churches only - money that you have to explicitly opt-out of giving? Will the government collect debts that other people owe me? Hell, no! So why should the government collecting church taxes for them?
sunshineforever 5y ago
I've just learned about the UK internet blocks. Is it true that torrent sites are blocked for adults and consensual BDSM like spanking is considered illegal pornography? I can't really believe it till I hear it from a person. I had no idea. This completely changes my view of the UK and the world suddenly seems much darker.
bennyelv 5y ago
Apart from the fact that I can't go to a supermarket at 5pm on a Sunday, of course.
- eru 5y ago
  Yes, though from what I can tell that's mostly been defended by the unions now?

regularfry 5y ago

It's not the political leadership, it's the financial levers. Visa and Mastercard, specifically. Yes, there's an overlap there, but your use of the expression "a ban on religion in the political space" highlights the problem. To frame it first as a political problem in the sense of political parties and professional politicians misses where the harm is being done; and to expand the definition of "political space" in your ban to include private financial operators would ban religion entirely. And that's also not possible to do while calling yourself a free country.

TimonKnigge 5y ago

People's political views are generally interwoven with their notion of morality and in the case of the religious, that morality is informed by their religion. The idea that you can separate religion and politics is misguided at best.

BoxOfRain 5y ago
Also, even if you remove religion something else will surely take its place. It seems that notions of aggressive conventionality and "crush the unclean" are somewhat baked into a percentage of society, and I definitely think the really hostile climate of the pandemic has added evidence to this theory. There's always going to be a nasty, moralistic, curtain-twitcher segment of society no matter what name or organisation they give it. Sometimes they hide behind religion, sometimes they hide behind politics, sometimes it's another label entirely but what they all have in common is an excessive bias when it comes to the emotion of disgust. I'm certainly not anti-religious (I'm no atheist myself), but I'm very anti-moral crusading against the business of consenting adults whatever form it takes.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
The Unholy Trinity: State, Church and the Market. Despite the common belief to the contrary, they can never be truly separated. They're only distinct in the sense a continuous multimodal distribution has "distinct" modes - the boundaries are fuzzy. Ultimately, they all serve the goal of social coordination, and they all work with means of coercing people to do things for other people.

vrotaru 5y ago

> Is it really such a mystery? Powerful "Blame your political opponents" move and damn those Chesterton fences. On a more serious note, it is not just porn and it's all about gene survival. Men who do not care about the sexual freedom of their partners tend to got the way of Dodo. (for obvious reasons). But I grant you that they may a live a more pleasant and relaxed life.

frenchyatwork 5y ago
> Men who do not care about the sexual freedom of their partners tend to got the way of Dodo. I can't speak for others, but my partner and I have a monogamous relationship because we like each other. We don't need government coercion. (edited to make it sound less ominous)

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

> I'm suggesting a ban on religion in the political space. Religions are just old ideologies centered on an anthropomorphic metaphor. It's not possible to exist without ideology -- even if it's something neoliberal and pared-down. And, people will create institutions to provide them with additional structure, if the State isn't giving it to them. They'll organize around a priest, or a VP of DEI; they'll choose a holy book (Atlas Shrugged, the Koran, Das Kapital), and so on. And, lo and behold, those alternative structures will start coercing people too. > prohibits sexual freedom The older I get, the more I think "freedom" is a trap. What is the alcoholic's freedom to drink? The procrastinator's freedom to watch YouTube videos? Odysseus, before sailing past the Sirens, was wise enough to ask his sailors to tie him to the mast. I know you say you're self-motivated, but how many of you would really accomplish much without at least a little pressure from a boss, from perf review, or from your peers at least? "But I'm the CEO!", you say. Well, do you ever work harder as you prep for a board meeting? I will do a dangerous thing now and, although essentially secular, make an Old Testament reference: What of Onan's freedom from responsibility for Tamar (i.e., his choice to leave her abandoned after Er's death), freedom from responsibility for the children he would have had with her? (People have myopically and stupidly focused on the "mechanics" of that story while missing the point.) What if the consequences of your "freedom" don't hit you for many years? What if, as an individual, you simply don't have enough time in your life to make the mistake and learn from it? I know a few people who were "free" to completely fuck up their lives, and they're belatedly figuring it out now, usually when it's too late.

dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
I'd like to start by saying I respect your arguments. Freedom is a very multifaceted word. On one hand, it means being free from coercion from others to do or not do what you want. On the other, it also means being free to do what you want without being forced into it by your own mind. Most people have no freedom over their own minds, they would be slaves even if no laws applied to them and they had infinite money. Restricting physical freedom to guide those people even makes sense, as I would say those people are the majority. But why the fuck would I accept that? I choose what I do and what I feel, why should I submit to others rules "for my own good" when my own mind has shown itself capable of choosing the correct option even when it hurts? Why should I limit my potential so every idiot who can't go 5 seconds without his little dopamine hits won't find a way to kill himself by the time he's 40? Why are the lives of the unaccomplished masses more important than my own? Admittedly, this isn't a huge problem in my life, since to quote the New Testament, "if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move". Yet I feel like this kind of paternalism stunts the growth of those who would one day learn true freedom from themselves too. If you are shepherded into behaving, you do not learn why one must behave that way.