15 ms·

How to work with me - a no BS approach

181 points by beagledude 15y ago

sedev 15y ago
That seems like a risky flow of rules - but mostly in that they look difficult to consistently adhere to. Someone who could consistently play by those rules would be interesting to work with. The list also, though, makes an underlying claim of "I am good enough at what I do that I can play by these rules, which are atypical of American workplace culture." If that claim is not a valid one, this list would probably indicate someone deeply problematic to work with.
- alanfalcon 15y ago
  Given that the list was presented here "with a lot of respect and admiration for the author" I get the impression that this is simply someone who is indeed interesting to work with and validly good enough to play by those rules. I had a boss's boss that was like a mini version of this at a menial job quite some time ago - I didn't enjoy working with him, but we got shit done quickly and efficiently, and the meetings were at least painlessly short. I vastly prefer this to working with incompetent people, and because my boss's boss was the way he was there were very few incompetent people around me in positions of any authority.
hugh3 15y ago
I don't care how good you are, how good you think you are, or how lucky you think I am to be working with you, the tone of this "list of rules" comes across as rude, and being rude to your underlings just isn't a good way to get them to work effectively (at least not in most cases). The actual suggestions are pretty reasonable, though. As a fun exercise, you could rewrite this list so it sounds helpful and polite rather than rude and egotistical. I've been around academia for long enough to have met a lot of really first-rate minds who are polite and humble, and a lot of second-rate minds who are rude and arrogant. And maybe I've met some first-rate minds who are rude and arrogant as well, but I haven't noticed because I've mentally sorted them into the "overcompensating second-rater" category. tl;dr: Don't be a cunt.
- dctoedt 15y ago
  I also like these rules, a lot. I've had bosses who used similar rules; they seemed to work pretty well. The tone doesn't bother me. I've been a boss, too, and sometimes you really do have to get people's attention with a 2x4---especially when dealing with young whippersnapper subordinates who have a high opinion of their own capabilities [I should know; I used to be one of those].
  - loungin 15y ago
    How would you go about setting one of those young whippersnappers in their place? I honestly think I am beginning to become one at my current job and need a reality check. I am also curious to hear wisdom from someone who has been through it. :)
    - dctoedt 15y ago
      > How would you go about setting one of those young whippersnappers in their place? I've found it's best not to try. First off, as to any given issue, the Young Whippersnapper might well be right. Second, I seem to get best results by treating the YW with patience and respect---regardless whether I think he (or she) is right---and by trying to help him fill in whatever gaps I think he has in his knowledge, so he do a better job next time. (In a given case, the knowledge might relate to how the YW can be a better team player.) By no means should a boss tolerate poor performance forever, but pretty much everyone needs training.
    - dctoedt 15y ago
      @loungin, it occurs to me I might not have responded to what you were really asking. Some suggestions: 1. No matter how mistaken you think your boss is, once he (or she) has made a decision, your job is to support him as best you can, subject always to the fundamental constraints of ethics and integrity. 2. Loyalty up, loyalty down, and loyalty sideways, subject again to the fundamental constraints. Among other things, that means constant patience, courtesy, and respect for everyone else on the team, at all times (no backbiting). 3. If you don't know how to be humble and modest in your dealings with others, fake it. (It helps to remind yourself that, whatever Supreme Being might or might not exist, the odds are it's not you.) 4. It's no sin not to know what to do. When in doubt, take your best shot at formulating both a Plan A and a Plan B, and then ask your boss for guidance; he might tweak one of your plans, and/or might point out something you hadn't thought of. But use your judgment---while your boss might want you to go through the learning experience of figuring things out for yourself, he might also not want you to spend a lot of time doing so before asking for help. You could ask him that, perhaps. Consulting with peers sometimes helps, which is one reason it's good to be on good terms with them. 5. Don't take it personally if someone criticizes you, even harshly. While you might well have screwed up, that doesn't mean you're a failure as a human being; it means you played the hand you were dealt as best you knew how at that time, and now you have a welcome opportunity to learn from the experience; be glad of it. 6. A serviceable rule of thumb: Seek the best for others as you do for yourself.
r00fus 15y ago
I really like the gist of the "rules" presented here. I don't think the tone is useful. You can be efficient, strict and no-bullshit without being an asshole (think: Spock). For example, rule #3: Bring pen and paper to every meeting with me. Pay attention to what I say; I'll try to speak with care. If I frequently must repeat instructions, or remind you of something I've already told you, you will not work with me again. ...could easily be rewritten to be as effective and less authoritarian.
- danilocampos 15y ago
  I'm not so sure. It sounds like this person is articulating a deal breaker. It's not unfair or unreasonable to have deal breakers in relationships. Better to know in advance, right?
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Again, it's all in how you phrase 'em. Example: I wouldn't date a girl who was vegetarian, who smoked, or who didn't shave her armpits. And that's fine. But if I gave my girlfriend a printed list which says: RULES FOR DATING ME 1. Do not smoke 2. Eat meat at least three times a week 3. Keep your armpits free of hair ... then she would rightly think that I was a complete asshole.
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      it depends on who is the boss. Lets suppose that your GF gave your a printed list which says: RULES FOR DATING ME 1. Do not smoke 2. Eat meat at least three times a week 3. Keep your armpits free of hair ... would you think that she is an asshole? Nope. Instead, you'd most definitely think that she is a queen. Thinking back to the original blog and rules - well if your boss is an asshole who thinks about himself like queen - well, in that case such rules seems to be expected and there is no other way around except to change the job.
      - hugh3 15y ago
        it depends on who is the boss. Lets suppose that your GF gave your a printed list which says: ... would you think that she is an asshole? Nope. Instead, you'd most definitely think that she is a queen. lolwut? Dude, if that's how the power differential in your relationship works then you definitely need a new girlfriend. Or maybe she needs a new boyfriend. One or the other.
datadon 15y ago
If you can bear to get to the bottom of this list, there is a gem waiting for you: "Don't sent me long documents. I like precision and concision. Say it on one page (or less)."
- pacaro 15y ago
  I agree with some, disagree with others, but for me this is critical, I see a lot of documents, many of which are bloated with irrelevant material to try and deliberately make them seem weightier than they are... For example a technical design document that reasonably contained less than a page of technical information plus a couple of useful diagrams padded out to 10 pages with user requirements that had been cut and paste from the original requirements document. The design may or may not have been good, but teasing it out from within vaguely familiar material wasn't worth the effort for most readers, so it gets ignored, the dev thinking they have consensus starts implementing and is suprised by the ensuing shit-storm. An email or post-it with a single paragraph or bulleted list of "here's what I'm going to do" would have been more effective
  - troels 15y ago
    You missed the joke. He's spending 17 points to say that you should be concise. That's ironic.
ryandvm 15y ago
Meh. My wager is that anyone that gives lists like these to their employees is less brilliant and more of an asshole then they realize.
jusob 15y ago
"Don't tell me there's a problem without offering a solution." I disagree. While I try to think about solutions before bringing up the problem, sometimes I cannot find the solution on my own. It can be a good idea to talk about the problem to other people. Collectively, we might find a solutions.
ulisesroche 15y ago
I hate this list. It takes too long to get its point across(17 points), all the micromanagement will slow everything down, and point 2 and 15 are contradictory. I worked under someone like this as an intern, and though I never "got in trouble", that's probably because I was scared and needed the money. I left as soon as I could and so did most of the team.
dredmorbius 15y ago
There are two items on that list that would raise hackles with me: email, and repeating. I'd also hold the boss to their claims of openness and consistency. There are a number of promises made in that document which had damned well better be held to, or this is a recipe for disaster. Email is very effective. If used effectively. There are reasons large collaborative online projects communicate primarily through email. It's good for surfacing issues, and particularly for keeping a record of what was said (in some businesses, this can be a liability, and there's a lot of aversion to it). The problems arise when: - Nobody owns a conclusion. Discussions can be interminable. If a conclusion is reached, it needs to be noted. If not you end up with the online interminable debate -- there's no judge on Usenet/Slashdot/HN to end the debate. - Conventional enterprise email tools hinder discussion. There's a reason "geek style" quoting, trimming, and threaded mail agents are used. GMail gets close. MS Outlook, Lotus Notes, and the like, are horrendous. - I've had more than one boss who was convinced of their own brilliance, but who was in fact very vague and very inconsistent. Nailing down requirements/expectations, or communicating bad news was at best problematic. In the context of an expectations list such as this, that won't work. On repeating things. Every boss I've had, from Mom on down, has had to repeat things, and often hasn't liked it. Deal with it. Management means managing. If you're repeating yourself (often and for most of your subordinates), there's a problem with your communication style, your expectations, change control, task/project tracking, or some mix of the above. People work on a basis of repeated social encounters. There are messages which are so repetitive that we paste them on labels, placards, loop them in rail/airport/bus system announcements, etc. And that's the simple stuff. If you're a manager, you'd best get used to that too, and find ways of dealing with this that 1) minimize the requirement and 2) allow you to be repetitive without driving yourself nuts or dulling the message. Brevity. It works for simple use cases. Complex ideas require a more nuanced exposition. Otherwise -- yes, there are a few good points in there.
- joe_the_user 15y ago
  There are a number of promises made in that document which had damned well better be held to, or this is a recipe for disaster. Yes, but spelling out the promises clearly is at least a step towards making sure they are followed.
- 15y ago
IgorPartola 15y ago
Whorver wrote this sounds like an asshole. Working for him/her sounds like a chore. Handing out shit like this is an insult to your "minions". Calling people for whom you you are supposed to be a leader "minions" is also an insult. I don't care if you are a Balmer or Jobs; this is a dick move.
geoffc 15y ago
Pretentious. The points that particularly irk me are: #1 - Duh, everyone does. #3 - Why do you assume I need pen and paper to keep track of what is going on. #5 - Why am I responsible for your lack of time management skills. #8 - The async nature of email threads works well for a lot of complex topics. #17 - The definition of irony. Edit: My HN posts like this one usually get a quick down one negative vote and then climb out of the hole from there. It all started after I posted this comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1331769 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1331769. Could whoever has me on their bozo filter lighten up. Thanks.
- ChristianMarks 15y ago
  Pretentious is the word. +1.
- skorgu 15y ago
  > #1 - Duh, everyone does. IME this isn't even remotely close to true. This applies to at best 10% of people in an average corporate environment (which is the context I assumed for the document).
acangiano 15y ago
The rules would seem less harsh if posed as recommendations, nevertheless there is lots of good advice in there. > Don't sent me long documents. I like precision I'm certain that the irony of this finale and typo will not escape this readership.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- chollida1 15y ago
  Well I guess as long as he always spells it that way he is being precise, just not that accurate:)
jasonmoo 15y ago
I've worked with this guy. He's actually one of the most tolerant and respectful people I've met. The fact that he's incited a flamewar is actually pretty funny. You should spend some time reading his code. You will learn something.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Well, if he really is a nice guy and seems like an asshole in the list, then that's an even bigger reason to think that the list is bad. You should send him this thread. Oh wait, he doesn't like email. You should have a micro-meeting with him in which you tell him the URL to this thread. Be sure to remain standing.
  - jasonmoo 15y ago
    u mad bro?
- beagledude 15y ago
  moo, not sure this is about who you think it is, brito was just blogging about an old boss he had. He told me about this letter and I asked him to type it up so we could read it.
- jp_sc 15y ago
  It says the poster is not the author of the list. Are you talking of @darkgoyle or the original author?
JoshTriplett 15y ago
I agree with most of these points, disagree strongly with others, and think this list could shrink by half with no loss of meaning, but above all I'd still rather see something like this documented rather than assumed. Too often a community has a set of unwritten rules which they will expect new members to follow, and short of lurking for a long time you can't learn those rules; even then you won't learn them all, and you'll (hopefully) get informed when you screw them up. I'd rather see documentation. (I also think that the authoritarian tone people attribute to this document comes from the context; if you read it as a list of rules for sane interaction with any professional rather than with a particular individual, it seems quite reasonable. Granted, it didn't start out that way, but that seems like the spirit intended by reposting it.)
- hugh3 15y ago
  if you read it as a list of rules for sane interaction with any professional rather than with a particular individual, it seems quite reasonable But there's some stuff here that's specific to this individual. He doesn't like email. Some folks do. Honestly, I really do think it's a good idea to give your underlings some kind of guide to how you prefer to work. It's just also important to do it without being rude.
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    Yeah, I had the bit about email in mind when saying "disagree strongly with others".
mattdeboard 15y ago
To be completely honest, I like this quite a lot. I would much rather deal with someone I know is firm, fair and decisive than a dithering worry-wort who tries to tiptoe around everyone's various emotional states. It's words on a piece of paper. This guy is very clearly laying out a list of guidelines for subordinates in a way that leaves absolutely no room for second-guessing. You guys getting insulted by this, I'm not sure what to say.
achilds55 15y ago
These are very good. borkt: > Most of these rules should go without saying and were instilled in me through jobs growing up and strengthened through college. I agree strongly with borkt - these are common-sense professional behaviors, usually picked up over time. Fresh grads will do well to consider incorporating these behaviors on entering the workforce. Whether it makes you a jerk for handing it out to subordinates (IMO it does) seems beside the point. The list itself is valuable as reinforcement for efficient behavior in the office.
aculver 15y ago
If this resonates with you, you may enjoy reading http://randsinrepose.com/ http://randsinrepose.com/ and http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Humans-Humorous-Software-Engineering/dp/159059844X/ http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Humans-Humorous-Software-Engi... .
datn 15y ago
This person is a jerk.
quadyeast 15y ago
2 and 15 seem to contradict each other.
- dredmorbius 15y ago
  Good point. #15 is also implying subordinates manage (make decisions). While it's helpful to give/get recommendations, the subordinate may not have the full context of a problem. Which has shades again (see my remarks above on repeating) of a manager who doesn't want to manage.
shabble 15y ago
The style reminds me a little of http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/08/tiger-oil-memos.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/08/tiger-oil-memos.html Although, as many others have already said, the rules themselves are fairly sensible, but the way in which they're presented is a little heavy-handed (even for a 'No BS Approach!')
walexander 15y ago
Maybe this is not being received well because of the startup audience here. Coming from the corporate environment, I see some excellent points. In a big company there are simply far too many people scrambling to be heard, and a middle manager really doesn't have time to hear all of them. Getting tied up in unnecessary meetings is a huge drain on everyone. Most meetings consist of 2-3 people who just like arguing and 10 others having their time wasted. So, sure, the list is not perfect, but I wish everyone at my company had a copy of it.
- borkt 15y ago
  Exactly, and the information that the manager is asking for is what will save your ass when the company is deciding which project is going to get the axe. If you play by these rules and properly prepare for the meetings you can be confident that the manager you are working for has all of the data he needs to defend the project, which is much more than I can say for places I have worked.
cdcarter 15y ago
"If you must prepare reports for me, review spreadsheets I've created. Copy the style and format." This is so incredibly important. Not only is it great to have a unified reporting look on a team, this promotes comprehension. If you present me a spreadsheet that looks like how I make a spreadsheet, I'll understand it very quickly. Likewise, if you start making spreadsheets that look like mine, you'll understand mine better.
j_baker 15y ago
If a boss of mine gave me a set of rules like this, I would quit immediately. It sounds like something a narcissist would write. The rules themselves aren't necessarily bad. I agree with the majority of them. Nor is this list necessarily rude. In fact, if you pay attention to it, the wording is actually pretty polite. The giant, waving red flag here is the underlying sense of entitlement. Notice that each rule is of the form "Don't do this, I like that." Of course, the thing that's being left out of all of this is how the person who's reading it works. I don't care if you're the boss. You can't expect efficient teamwork without taking the team's desires into account.
- skorgu 15y ago
  I suspect the boss in this situation consider you quitting a net positive if your style of interaction is so dissimilar to his/hers.
  - j_baker 15y ago
    "Style of interaction"? I bet Jeffrey Skilling had a "dissimilar style of interaction" with Enron's accountants. Hitler seemed to have had a "dissimilar style of interaction" with the Jews. Believe it or not, sometimes people in authority are irredeemable assholes and you have no option but to escape. If it makes their lives easier too, so much the better.
ChristianMarks 15y ago
In every case where I have worked with someone who enumerates a list of rules like this, I have observed: 1) that the author believes he is being highly original; 2) the rules are enforced unilaterally, and adhered to by the author at best grudgingly if at all; and, 3) whenever a superior tells you, "I'm an X person," for whatever X you like (people, no-nonsense, pure as the driven snow, bullshit-free-zone) you can rest assured that the opposite is the case.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
wglb 15y ago
I am reminded of the "egoless programming" movement of, oh, I can't even remember how long ago. What I have always wondered is why there is no such thing as "egoless management". I see by the attitude expressed here that the author would not subscribe to this plan either. I have been a manager in other lifetimes and have had some serious A players on the team. This tone and the expectations listed here might work for B players or C players, but no A player I know would sit still for this for a moment.
cHalgan 15y ago
I scanned and noticed some common newbie mistakes... I wish the life is so simple :( I don't like email, particularly for discussing complex topics Dijkstra is rolling in the grave... If you cannot write down your thoughts about some complex topic, waving hands in the meeting will not make it more clear. I guarantee. Don't tell me there's a problem without offering a solution. Good luck with that. The result will be: look we have no problems. Sometimes (actually more often than you think) problems don't have solution at all and the best way is to cut the loses. Don't send me long documents. I like precision and concision. Say it on one page (or less). Simplification: if you are a knowledge worker sometimes very long elaborated documents are very much required. Bring pen and paper to every meeting with me. Pay attention to what I say; I'll try to speak with care. If I frequently must repeat instructions, or remind you o something I've already told you, you will not work with me again. Effective managers say things twice using multiple communication channels: http://hbr.org/2011/05/defend-your-research-effective-managers-say-the-same-thing-twice-or-more/ar/1 http://hbr.org/2011/05/defend-your-research-effective-manage... If you have a meeting with me at an assigned time, and I am in another meeting with my door closed, interrupt me. You know, you should get some kind of calendar or watch... That is how people rise to the top .... If you disagree with me, voice your differences. That is fine but don't push that responsibility to your reports. I was lucky to be once on a meeting with our CEO (big corporation - CEO is very very rich guy). And he would go around table and ask everybody (including me) what they think and to voice disagreement.
hasenj 15y ago
How to work with me: - Don't boss me around. Thank you very much.
rexreed 15y ago
This person sounds like a real pleasure to work with. Efficient? Sure. Human? I doubt it. No wonder people like this seek more solace in computers than people. I have just one rule: don't work with assholes. I guess that rules out this "expert".
al-king 15y ago
Point 3 is poorly thought out. Speaking carefully includes emphasising important points. Think of communication the same way Don Norman thinks about design. 15 is iffy. I'd prefer to know about a problem even if someone has no idea how to fix it, whether through lack of experience or creativity. If he's meaning to say "people who work with me must be this talented", just come out and say it. The rest are by and large sensible and to the point. I particularly like avoiding e-mails, because it's not intuitive, but it can work well: e-mail seems like it has an importance hump and 'stupid questions' might not be raised, and simultaneously it's harder to tell how people feel about things. Might work differently for you, though.
schiptsov 15y ago
Show us your accomplishments (your code) first.. ^_^
cwbrandsma 15y ago
I would LOVE to work for someone like this. This is how I communicate, and it is how I like to be communicated to. Side note: I've spent a bit of time looking at personality profiles (Meyers-Briggs (sp?)), you will see this as the favored communication style for many introverts (I'm an INTP). Others would see this as very stand arrogant. Personally, I always hate talking with HR because of all the bullshit thrown around and refusing to get to the point.
enko 15y ago
I find the polarised reaction to this list almost more interesting than the list itself. As for me, I was in complete agreement with basically all of it. I didn't find it rude, in fact rather the opposite - I appreciate the consideration for our shared time and the pledges to fairness and efficiency. I wonder about the work experience of some of the most vocal offendees. Maybe as you get older, and hear that clock ticking louder and louder, you come to appreciate brutal efficiency a little more. Yeah, the guy's blunt, but at least he's not going to waste your time. Would that I could say the same for every leader I've had to work with. And for those obsessing over the "copy my document style" etc - that's a rule you can break if you know how to break it, ie you know you can do better. If you've seen, however, some of the shocking creations inexperienced people can come up with using excel - well, that rule's for them, not you. And the reason he says he "likes" things is because he doesn't want to argue about it. That's his preference, do it. When you go to a restaurant and order a steak, do you bring out the chef and tell him "give it to me well done, because that's the best way of cooking it"? Cue huge debate? No. You say, this steak please, well done, because I like it like that. Gets what you want, no argument, no book length discussions on The Effectiveness Of Communication Methods. Anyway, nice post.
- copper 15y ago
  If I can offer my own reaction as a guide, I'd find the list less rude if I could trust it was written by someone with an actual record of successful management. I've known a few people who talk this way, and had a past record of turning projects into Hell Marches. That said, I'd be interested in what you think of raldi's take on this list - he's rewritten it to be both concise and, (lacking a better word) classy. It is far less likely to raise hackles and makes an interesting comparison to the original. And well, knowing his record, I'd much rather work with Mike than with whoever wrote the original :)
  - enko 15y ago
    > Hi! I bet you're super nervous about meeting me, but please don't be -- I'm just a big dork. Frankly I prefer the original. Same meaning, less couched in happy-happy bullshit. At least with the original I feel like I'm being addressed as an adult. The re-write reads like something a school principal gives to his students. The original - well, with a few tweaks maybe it's something I could imagine sending out myself. The rewrite, with its fake chatty "we're all such good buddies" schtick? never. "I'm just a big dork", bloody hell, someone please shoot me the day I start saying things like that. It's a sliding scale between sounding like an asshole, and sounded like a goofy douchebag pretending he's everyone's bestest bestest buddy. The original might have been slightly biased to the former; the rewrite is way too far in the other direction.
jorsh 15y ago
I would LOVE to work with this guy, but only if he was actually competent and had his shit together. It has nothing to do with directness or tone, it has everything to do with being managed by someone who is actually good at managing people and knows their stuff. I've worked for terrible managers and no amount of softness or politeness has made my job any better.
jai4love 15y ago
great, provided the guy him self in not a BS. i find most of them up there for other reasons than there no BS approach.on real life these are more precise. http://www.fullbc.in/World_is_a...html http://www.fullbc.in/World_is_a...html http://www.fullbc.in/Good_Manager_-_Bad_Manager.html http://www.fullbc.in/Good_Manager_-_Bad_Manager.html http://www.fullbc.in/Massage.html http://www.fullbc.in/Massage.html
Morcane 15y ago
Sounds like a prenup, and a bitter, angry, lonely person.
MicahWedemeyer 15y ago
I love it when our overlords refer to us as minions. Plus, it's a double-treat when concern for the feelings of others is perceived as being a weakling. I'm actually kind of glad that the world of software development is filled with people who pride themselves on ignoring the soft skills of working in a team. That makes it sooooo much easier for me to get a job, since all I have to do is show a teeny, tiny bit of humanity and congeniality in a job interview and I'm way above the other candidates.
brown9-2 15y ago
If you have a meeting with me at an assigned time, and I am in another meeting with my door closed, interrupt me. I stack meetings, and each meeting leads into the next. How is this anything but rude to the parties involved?
phillijw 15y ago
I think I understand the message this is meant to get across ("my time is valuable; don't waste it with formalities") but it wreaks of a different message to me: "my time is more valuable than yours; don't waste mine with stuff that I would rather you waste yours with" Also, it states that you should not have to be told something twice but then he comes back later to say that if something is not clear, get it clarified. These seem very contradictory to me. I, for one, prefer emails because I can always go back and refer to what someone said without taking down quickly written hand jotted notes. Miscommunications can be referred to directly and fixed, in writing. It seems counter intuitive to have a face to face meeting and then expect that every bit of communication will be completely understood.

181 points by beagledude 15y ago

sedev 15y ago

That seems like a risky flow of rules - but mostly in that they look difficult to consistently adhere to. Someone who could consistently play by those rules would be interesting to work with. The list also, though, makes an underlying claim of "I am good enough at what I do that I can play by these rules, which are atypical of American workplace culture." If that claim is not a valid one, this list would probably indicate someone deeply problematic to work with.

alanfalcon 15y ago
Given that the list was presented here "with a lot of respect and admiration for the author" I get the impression that this is simply someone who is indeed interesting to work with and validly good enough to play by those rules. I had a boss's boss that was like a mini version of this at a menial job quite some time ago - I didn't enjoy working with him, but we got shit done quickly and efficiently, and the meetings were at least painlessly short. I vastly prefer this to working with incompetent people, and because my boss's boss was the way he was there were very few incompetent people around me in positions of any authority.

hugh3 15y ago

I don't care how good you are, how good you think you are, or how lucky you think I am to be working with you, the tone of this "list of rules" comes across as rude, and being rude to your underlings just isn't a good way to get them to work effectively (at least not in most cases). The actual suggestions are pretty reasonable, though. As a fun exercise, you could rewrite this list so it sounds helpful and polite rather than rude and egotistical. I've been around academia for long enough to have met a lot of really first-rate minds who are polite and humble, and a lot of second-rate minds who are rude and arrogant. And maybe I've met some first-rate minds who are rude and arrogant as well, but I haven't noticed because I've mentally sorted them into the "overcompensating second-rater" category. tl;dr: Don't be a cunt.

dctoedt 15y ago
I also like these rules, a lot. I've had bosses who used similar rules; they seemed to work pretty well. The tone doesn't bother me. I've been a boss, too, and sometimes you really do have to get people's attention with a 2x4---especially when dealing with young whippersnapper subordinates who have a high opinion of their own capabilities [I should know; I used to be one of those].
- loungin 15y ago
  How would you go about setting one of those young whippersnappers in their place? I honestly think I am beginning to become one at my current job and need a reality check. I am also curious to hear wisdom from someone who has been through it. :)
  - dctoedt 15y ago
    > How would you go about setting one of those young whippersnappers in their place? I've found it's best not to try. First off, as to any given issue, the Young Whippersnapper might well be right. Second, I seem to get best results by treating the YW with patience and respect---regardless whether I think he (or she) is right---and by trying to help him fill in whatever gaps I think he has in his knowledge, so he do a better job next time. (In a given case, the knowledge might relate to how the YW can be a better team player.) By no means should a boss tolerate poor performance forever, but pretty much everyone needs training.
  - dctoedt 15y ago
    @loungin, it occurs to me I might not have responded to what you were really asking. Some suggestions: 1. No matter how mistaken you think your boss is, once he (or she) has made a decision, your job is to support him as best you can, subject always to the fundamental constraints of ethics and integrity. 2. Loyalty up, loyalty down, and loyalty sideways, subject again to the fundamental constraints. Among other things, that means constant patience, courtesy, and respect for everyone else on the team, at all times (no backbiting). 3. If you don't know how to be humble and modest in your dealings with others, fake it. (It helps to remind yourself that, whatever Supreme Being might or might not exist, the odds are it's not you.) 4. It's no sin not to know what to do. When in doubt, take your best shot at formulating both a Plan A and a Plan B, and then ask your boss for guidance; he might tweak one of your plans, and/or might point out something you hadn't thought of. But use your judgment---while your boss might want you to go through the learning experience of figuring things out for yourself, he might also not want you to spend a lot of time doing so before asking for help. You could ask him that, perhaps. Consulting with peers sometimes helps, which is one reason it's good to be on good terms with them. 5. Don't take it personally if someone criticizes you, even harshly. While you might well have screwed up, that doesn't mean you're a failure as a human being; it means you played the hand you were dealt as best you knew how at that time, and now you have a welcome opportunity to learn from the experience; be glad of it. 6. A serviceable rule of thumb: Seek the best for others as you do for yourself.

r00fus 15y ago

I really like the gist of the "rules" presented here. I don't think the tone is useful. You can be efficient, strict and no-bullshit without being an asshole (think: Spock). For example, rule #3: Bring pen and paper to every meeting with me. Pay attention to what I say; I'll try to speak with care. If I frequently must repeat instructions, or remind you of something I've already told you, you will not work with me again. ...could easily be rewritten to be as effective and less authoritarian.

danilocampos 15y ago
I'm not so sure. It sounds like this person is articulating a deal breaker. It's not unfair or unreasonable to have deal breakers in relationships. Better to know in advance, right?
- hugh3 15y ago
  Again, it's all in how you phrase 'em. Example: I wouldn't date a girl who was vegetarian, who smoked, or who didn't shave her armpits. And that's fine. But if I gave my girlfriend a printed list which says: RULES FOR DATING ME 1. Do not smoke 2. Eat meat at least three times a week 3. Keep your armpits free of hair ... then she would rightly think that I was a complete asshole.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    it depends on who is the boss. Lets suppose that your GF gave your a printed list which says: RULES FOR DATING ME 1. Do not smoke 2. Eat meat at least three times a week 3. Keep your armpits free of hair ... would you think that she is an asshole? Nope. Instead, you'd most definitely think that she is a queen. Thinking back to the original blog and rules - well if your boss is an asshole who thinks about himself like queen - well, in that case such rules seems to be expected and there is no other way around except to change the job.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      it depends on who is the boss. Lets suppose that your GF gave your a printed list which says: ... would you think that she is an asshole? Nope. Instead, you'd most definitely think that she is a queen. lolwut? Dude, if that's how the power differential in your relationship works then you definitely need a new girlfriend. Or maybe she needs a new boyfriend. One or the other.

datadon 15y ago

If you can bear to get to the bottom of this list, there is a gem waiting for you: "Don't sent me long documents. I like precision and concision. Say it on one page (or less)."

pacaro 15y ago
I agree with some, disagree with others, but for me this is critical, I see a lot of documents, many of which are bloated with irrelevant material to try and deliberately make them seem weightier than they are... For example a technical design document that reasonably contained less than a page of technical information plus a couple of useful diagrams padded out to 10 pages with user requirements that had been cut and paste from the original requirements document. The design may or may not have been good, but teasing it out from within vaguely familiar material wasn't worth the effort for most readers, so it gets ignored, the dev thinking they have consensus starts implementing and is suprised by the ensuing shit-storm. An email or post-it with a single paragraph or bulleted list of "here's what I'm going to do" would have been more effective
- troels 15y ago
  You missed the joke. He's spending 17 points to say that you should be concise. That's ironic.

ryandvm 15y ago

Meh. My wager is that anyone that gives lists like these to their employees is less brilliant and more of an asshole then they realize.

jusob 15y ago

"Don't tell me there's a problem without offering a solution." I disagree. While I try to think about solutions before bringing up the problem, sometimes I cannot find the solution on my own. It can be a good idea to talk about the problem to other people. Collectively, we might find a solutions.

ulisesroche 15y ago

I hate this list. It takes too long to get its point across(17 points), all the micromanagement will slow everything down, and point 2 and 15 are contradictory. I worked under someone like this as an intern, and though I never "got in trouble", that's probably because I was scared and needed the money. I left as soon as I could and so did most of the team.

dredmorbius 15y ago

There are two items on that list that would raise hackles with me: email, and repeating. I'd also hold the boss to their claims of openness and consistency. There are a number of promises made in that document which had damned well better be held to, or this is a recipe for disaster. Email is very effective. If used effectively. There are reasons large collaborative online projects communicate primarily through email. It's good for surfacing issues, and particularly for keeping a record of what was said (in some businesses, this can be a liability, and there's a lot of aversion to it). The problems arise when: - Nobody owns a conclusion. Discussions can be interminable. If a conclusion is reached, it needs to be noted. If not you end up with the online interminable debate -- there's no judge on Usenet/Slashdot/HN to end the debate. - Conventional enterprise email tools hinder discussion. There's a reason "geek style" quoting, trimming, and threaded mail agents are used. GMail gets close. MS Outlook, Lotus Notes, and the like, are horrendous. - I've had more than one boss who was convinced of their own brilliance, but who was in fact very vague and very inconsistent. Nailing down requirements/expectations, or communicating bad news was at best problematic. In the context of an expectations list such as this, that won't work. On repeating things. Every boss I've had, from Mom on down, has had to repeat things, and often hasn't liked it. Deal with it. Management means managing. If you're repeating yourself (often and for most of your subordinates), there's a problem with your communication style, your expectations, change control, task/project tracking, or some mix of the above. People work on a basis of repeated social encounters. There are messages which are so repetitive that we paste them on labels, placards, loop them in rail/airport/bus system announcements, etc. And that's the simple stuff. If you're a manager, you'd best get used to that too, and find ways of dealing with this that 1) minimize the requirement and 2) allow you to be repetitive without driving yourself nuts or dulling the message. Brevity. It works for simple use cases. Complex ideas require a more nuanced exposition. Otherwise -- yes, there are a few good points in there.

joe_the_user 15y ago
There are a number of promises made in that document which had damned well better be held to, or this is a recipe for disaster. Yes, but spelling out the promises clearly is at least a step towards making sure they are followed.
15y ago

IgorPartola 15y ago

Whorver wrote this sounds like an asshole. Working for him/her sounds like a chore. Handing out shit like this is an insult to your "minions". Calling people for whom you you are supposed to be a leader "minions" is also an insult. I don't care if you are a Balmer or Jobs; this is a dick move.

geoffc 15y ago

Pretentious. The points that particularly irk me are: #1 - Duh, everyone does. #3 - Why do you assume I need pen and paper to keep track of what is going on. #5 - Why am I responsible for your lack of time management skills. #8 - The async nature of email threads works well for a lot of complex topics. #17 - The definition of irony. Edit: My HN posts like this one usually get a quick down one negative vote and then climb out of the hole from there. It all started after I posted this comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1331769 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1331769. Could whoever has me on their bozo filter lighten up. Thanks.

ChristianMarks 15y ago
Pretentious is the word. +1.
skorgu 15y ago
> #1 - Duh, everyone does. IME this isn't even remotely close to true. This applies to at best 10% of people in an average corporate environment (which is the context I assumed for the document).

acangiano 15y ago

The rules would seem less harsh if posed as recommendations, nevertheless there is lots of good advice in there. > Don't sent me long documents. I like precision I'm certain that the irony of this finale and typo will not escape this readership.

deleted 15y ago
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chollida1 15y ago
Well I guess as long as he always spells it that way he is being precise, just not that accurate:)

jasonmoo 15y ago

I've worked with this guy. He's actually one of the most tolerant and respectful people I've met. The fact that he's incited a flamewar is actually pretty funny. You should spend some time reading his code. You will learn something.

hugh3 15y ago
Well, if he really is a nice guy and seems like an asshole in the list, then that's an even bigger reason to think that the list is bad. You should send him this thread. Oh wait, he doesn't like email. You should have a micro-meeting with him in which you tell him the URL to this thread. Be sure to remain standing.
- jasonmoo 15y ago
  u mad bro?
beagledude 15y ago
moo, not sure this is about who you think it is, brito was just blogging about an old boss he had. He told me about this letter and I asked him to type it up so we could read it.
jp_sc 15y ago
It says the poster is not the author of the list. Are you talking of @darkgoyle or the original author?

JoshTriplett 15y ago

I agree with most of these points, disagree strongly with others, and think this list could shrink by half with no loss of meaning, but above all I'd still rather see something like this documented rather than assumed. Too often a community has a set of unwritten rules which they will expect new members to follow, and short of lurking for a long time you can't learn those rules; even then you won't learn them all, and you'll (hopefully) get informed when you screw them up. I'd rather see documentation. (I also think that the authoritarian tone people attribute to this document comes from the context; if you read it as a list of rules for sane interaction with any professional rather than with a particular individual, it seems quite reasonable. Granted, it didn't start out that way, but that seems like the spirit intended by reposting it.)

hugh3 15y ago
if you read it as a list of rules for sane interaction with any professional rather than with a particular individual, it seems quite reasonable But there's some stuff here that's specific to this individual. He doesn't like email. Some folks do. Honestly, I really do think it's a good idea to give your underlings some kind of guide to how you prefer to work. It's just also important to do it without being rude.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  Yeah, I had the bit about email in mind when saying "disagree strongly with others".

mattdeboard 15y ago

To be completely honest, I like this quite a lot. I would much rather deal with someone I know is firm, fair and decisive than a dithering worry-wort who tries to tiptoe around everyone's various emotional states. It's words on a piece of paper. This guy is very clearly laying out a list of guidelines for subordinates in a way that leaves absolutely no room for second-guessing. You guys getting insulted by this, I'm not sure what to say.

achilds55 15y ago

These are very good. borkt: > Most of these rules should go without saying and were instilled in me through jobs growing up and strengthened through college. I agree strongly with borkt - these are common-sense professional behaviors, usually picked up over time. Fresh grads will do well to consider incorporating these behaviors on entering the workforce. Whether it makes you a jerk for handing it out to subordinates (IMO it does) seems beside the point. The list itself is valuable as reinforcement for efficient behavior in the office.

aculver 15y ago

If this resonates with you, you may enjoy reading http://randsinrepose.com/ http://randsinrepose.com/ and http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Humans-Humorous-Software-Engineering/dp/159059844X/ http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Humans-Humorous-Software-Engi... .

datn 15y ago

This person is a jerk.

quadyeast 15y ago

2 and 15 seem to contradict each other.

dredmorbius 15y ago
Good point. #15 is also implying subordinates manage (make decisions). While it's helpful to give/get recommendations, the subordinate may not have the full context of a problem. Which has shades again (see my remarks above on repeating) of a manager who doesn't want to manage.

shabble 15y ago

The style reminds me a little of http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/08/tiger-oil-memos.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/08/tiger-oil-memos.html Although, as many others have already said, the rules themselves are fairly sensible, but the way in which they're presented is a little heavy-handed (even for a 'No BS Approach!')

walexander 15y ago

Maybe this is not being received well because of the startup audience here. Coming from the corporate environment, I see some excellent points. In a big company there are simply far too many people scrambling to be heard, and a middle manager really doesn't have time to hear all of them. Getting tied up in unnecessary meetings is a huge drain on everyone. Most meetings consist of 2-3 people who just like arguing and 10 others having their time wasted. So, sure, the list is not perfect, but I wish everyone at my company had a copy of it.

borkt 15y ago
Exactly, and the information that the manager is asking for is what will save your ass when the company is deciding which project is going to get the axe. If you play by these rules and properly prepare for the meetings you can be confident that the manager you are working for has all of the data he needs to defend the project, which is much more than I can say for places I have worked.

cdcarter 15y ago

"If you must prepare reports for me, review spreadsheets I've created. Copy the style and format." This is so incredibly important. Not only is it great to have a unified reporting look on a team, this promotes comprehension. If you present me a spreadsheet that looks like how I make a spreadsheet, I'll understand it very quickly. Likewise, if you start making spreadsheets that look like mine, you'll understand mine better.

j_baker 15y ago

If a boss of mine gave me a set of rules like this, I would quit immediately. It sounds like something a narcissist would write. The rules themselves aren't necessarily bad. I agree with the majority of them. Nor is this list necessarily rude. In fact, if you pay attention to it, the wording is actually pretty polite. The giant, waving red flag here is the underlying sense of entitlement. Notice that each rule is of the form "Don't do this, I like that." Of course, the thing that's being left out of all of this is how the person who's reading it works. I don't care if you're the boss. You can't expect efficient teamwork without taking the team's desires into account.

skorgu 15y ago
I suspect the boss in this situation consider you quitting a net positive if your style of interaction is so dissimilar to his/hers.
- j_baker 15y ago
  "Style of interaction"? I bet Jeffrey Skilling had a "dissimilar style of interaction" with Enron's accountants. Hitler seemed to have had a "dissimilar style of interaction" with the Jews. Believe it or not, sometimes people in authority are irredeemable assholes and you have no option but to escape. If it makes their lives easier too, so much the better.

ChristianMarks 15y ago

In every case where I have worked with someone who enumerates a list of rules like this, I have observed: 1) that the author believes he is being highly original; 2) the rules are enforced unilaterally, and adhered to by the author at best grudgingly if at all; and, 3) whenever a superior tells you, "I'm an X person," for whatever X you like (people, no-nonsense, pure as the driven snow, bullshit-free-zone) you can rest assured that the opposite is the case.

deleted 15y ago

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wglb 15y ago

I am reminded of the "egoless programming" movement of, oh, I can't even remember how long ago. What I have always wondered is why there is no such thing as "egoless management". I see by the attitude expressed here that the author would not subscribe to this plan either. I have been a manager in other lifetimes and have had some serious A players on the team. This tone and the expectations listed here might work for B players or C players, but no A player I know would sit still for this for a moment.

cHalgan 15y ago

I scanned and noticed some common newbie mistakes... I wish the life is so simple :( I don't like email, particularly for discussing complex topics Dijkstra is rolling in the grave... If you cannot write down your thoughts about some complex topic, waving hands in the meeting will not make it more clear. I guarantee. Don't tell me there's a problem without offering a solution. Good luck with that. The result will be: look we have no problems. Sometimes (actually more often than you think) problems don't have solution at all and the best way is to cut the loses. Don't send me long documents. I like precision and concision. Say it on one page (or less). Simplification: if you are a knowledge worker sometimes very long elaborated documents are very much required. Bring pen and paper to every meeting with me. Pay attention to what I say; I'll try to speak with care. If I frequently must repeat instructions, or remind you o something I've already told you, you will not work with me again. Effective managers say things twice using multiple communication channels: http://hbr.org/2011/05/defend-your-research-effective-managers-say-the-same-thing-twice-or-more/ar/1 http://hbr.org/2011/05/defend-your-research-effective-manage... If you have a meeting with me at an assigned time, and I am in another meeting with my door closed, interrupt me. You know, you should get some kind of calendar or watch... That is how people rise to the top .... If you disagree with me, voice your differences. That is fine but don't push that responsibility to your reports. I was lucky to be once on a meeting with our CEO (big corporation - CEO is very very rich guy). And he would go around table and ask everybody (including me) what they think and to voice disagreement.

hasenj 15y ago

How to work with me: - Don't boss me around. Thank you very much.

rexreed 15y ago

This person sounds like a real pleasure to work with. Efficient? Sure. Human? I doubt it. No wonder people like this seek more solace in computers than people. I have just one rule: don't work with assholes. I guess that rules out this "expert".

al-king 15y ago

Point 3 is poorly thought out. Speaking carefully includes emphasising important points. Think of communication the same way Don Norman thinks about design. 15 is iffy. I'd prefer to know about a problem even if someone has no idea how to fix it, whether through lack of experience or creativity. If he's meaning to say "people who work with me must be this talented", just come out and say it. The rest are by and large sensible and to the point. I particularly like avoiding e-mails, because it's not intuitive, but it can work well: e-mail seems like it has an importance hump and 'stupid questions' might not be raised, and simultaneously it's harder to tell how people feel about things. Might work differently for you, though.

schiptsov 15y ago

Show us your accomplishments (your code) first.. ^_^

cwbrandsma 15y ago

I would LOVE to work for someone like this. This is how I communicate, and it is how I like to be communicated to. Side note: I've spent a bit of time looking at personality profiles (Meyers-Briggs (sp?)), you will see this as the favored communication style for many introverts (I'm an INTP). Others would see this as very stand arrogant. Personally, I always hate talking with HR because of all the bullshit thrown around and refusing to get to the point.

enko 15y ago

I find the polarised reaction to this list almost more interesting than the list itself. As for me, I was in complete agreement with basically all of it. I didn't find it rude, in fact rather the opposite - I appreciate the consideration for our shared time and the pledges to fairness and efficiency. I wonder about the work experience of some of the most vocal offendees. Maybe as you get older, and hear that clock ticking louder and louder, you come to appreciate brutal efficiency a little more. Yeah, the guy's blunt, but at least he's not going to waste your time. Would that I could say the same for every leader I've had to work with. And for those obsessing over the "copy my document style" etc - that's a rule you can break if you know how to break it, ie you know you can do better. If you've seen, however, some of the shocking creations inexperienced people can come up with using excel - well, that rule's for them, not you. And the reason he says he "likes" things is because he doesn't want to argue about it. That's his preference, do it. When you go to a restaurant and order a steak, do you bring out the chef and tell him "give it to me well done, because that's the best way of cooking it"? Cue huge debate? No. You say, this steak please, well done, because I like it like that. Gets what you want, no argument, no book length discussions on The Effectiveness Of Communication Methods. Anyway, nice post.

copper 15y ago
If I can offer my own reaction as a guide, I'd find the list less rude if I could trust it was written by someone with an actual record of successful management. I've known a few people who talk this way, and had a past record of turning projects into Hell Marches. That said, I'd be interested in what you think of raldi's take on this list - he's rewritten it to be both concise and, (lacking a better word) classy. It is far less likely to raise hackles and makes an interesting comparison to the original. And well, knowing his record, I'd much rather work with Mike than with whoever wrote the original :)
- enko 15y ago
  > Hi! I bet you're super nervous about meeting me, but please don't be -- I'm just a big dork. Frankly I prefer the original. Same meaning, less couched in happy-happy bullshit. At least with the original I feel like I'm being addressed as an adult. The re-write reads like something a school principal gives to his students. The original - well, with a few tweaks maybe it's something I could imagine sending out myself. The rewrite, with its fake chatty "we're all such good buddies" schtick? never. "I'm just a big dork", bloody hell, someone please shoot me the day I start saying things like that. It's a sliding scale between sounding like an asshole, and sounded like a goofy douchebag pretending he's everyone's bestest bestest buddy. The original might have been slightly biased to the former; the rewrite is way too far in the other direction.

jorsh 15y ago

I would LOVE to work with this guy, but only if he was actually competent and had his shit together. It has nothing to do with directness or tone, it has everything to do with being managed by someone who is actually good at managing people and knows their stuff. I've worked for terrible managers and no amount of softness or politeness has made my job any better.

jai4love 15y ago

great, provided the guy him self in not a BS. i find most of them up there for other reasons than there no BS approach.on real life these are more precise. http://www.fullbc.in/World_is_a...html http://www.fullbc.in/World_is_a...html http://www.fullbc.in/Good_Manager_-_Bad_Manager.html http://www.fullbc.in/Good_Manager_-_Bad_Manager.html http://www.fullbc.in/Massage.html http://www.fullbc.in/Massage.html

Morcane 15y ago

Sounds like a prenup, and a bitter, angry, lonely person.

MicahWedemeyer 15y ago

I love it when our overlords refer to us as minions. Plus, it's a double-treat when concern for the feelings of others is perceived as being a weakling. I'm actually kind of glad that the world of software development is filled with people who pride themselves on ignoring the soft skills of working in a team. That makes it sooooo much easier for me to get a job, since all I have to do is show a teeny, tiny bit of humanity and congeniality in a job interview and I'm way above the other candidates.

brown9-2 15y ago

If you have a meeting with me at an assigned time, and I am in another meeting with my door closed, interrupt me. I stack meetings, and each meeting leads into the next. How is this anything but rude to the parties involved?

phillijw 15y ago

I think I understand the message this is meant to get across ("my time is valuable; don't waste it with formalities") but it wreaks of a different message to me: "my time is more valuable than yours; don't waste mine with stuff that I would rather you waste yours with" Also, it states that you should not have to be told something twice but then he comes back later to say that if something is not clear, get it clarified. These seem very contradictory to me. I, for one, prefer emails because I can always go back and refer to what someone said without taking down quickly written hand jotted notes. Miscommunications can be referred to directly and fixed, in writing. It seems counter intuitive to have a face to face meeting and then expect that every bit of communication will be completely understood.