4 ms·

This seems ridiculous. If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations, then banning unvaccinated people from participating in life should

This seems ridiculous. If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations, then banning unvaccinated people from participating in life should also be outside of its authority. We should not be taking further steps to protect people who are able but not willing to be vaccinated. If you are unable to be vaccinated, then you can stay home voluntarily (this order just makes it mandatory which doesn't seem like an improvement).

skyde 5y ago
you don’t have to stay home you just can’t be wrekless and go kill people. Next thing you will say you should not need a driver license to drive a car because it limit your freedom?
- beeboop 5y ago
  I was thinking the other day how odd that these people aren't all up in arms about being required by law to wear a seatbelt. In my opinion that's much more controlling than requiring a vaccine.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    You think it's "much more controlling" to be required to wear a device which has been in existence for decades and shown to pose no health risks whatsoever, while driving an automobile, than it is to be required to take an experimental injection with adverse events being reported at 100x the rate of flu shots to go to public indoor spaces?
    - skyde 5y ago
      if you like number think about this. There is 25% chance you get covid this year and if you get covid there is 0.5% (IFR) chance you will die and 100% chance you will infect 7 other people. How does this compare with the odd of adverse reactions to the vaccine?
      - AndrewBissell 5y ago
        > if you get covid there is 0.5% (IFR) chance you will die and 100% chance you will infect 7 other people lol you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into cheap flamewar, and definitely not on the most flaming flamewar topic of the moment. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
LeoPanthera 5y ago
Indoor entertainment is not necessary for "participating in life".
- Grakel 5y ago
  You're truly special.
  - dang 5y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned here. No more of this, and please don't take HN threads further into flamewar either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and definitely not on the most flaming flamewar topic of the moment. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tw04 5y ago
>If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations The government absolutely has the right to mandate vaccinations, they just have chosen not to. I've heard this repeated more than once and I don't know where people got it from. On top of the supreme court ruling, just about every state has a state-level law giving the governor the right to enforce vaccinations as well. https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1824/jacobson-v-massachusetts https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1824/jacobson-v-mas...
tzs 5y ago
> This seems ridiculous. If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations, then banning unvaccinated people from participating in life should also be outside of its authority. Are you trying to make a general argument, or an argument specific to just vaccinations. If the former, there is quite a bit of historical precedent that says otherwise. For example, the government does not have the authority to mandate that I have a motor vehicle, but they can ban me from walking or using a non-motorized vehicle on the freeways. I'm sure you can think of plenty of other examples where the government can require that you have something or meet particular conditions in order to do some activity or enter some place, but they cannot mandate that you have that something or meet those conditions. > We should not be taking further steps to protect people who are able but not willing to be vaccinated. Unvaccinated people increase risk for vaccinated people. There was a useful infographic in this Ars article [1]. Imagine two hypothetical states, each with a population of 1 million. State A is 70% vaccinated, state B 30%. What you'd expect is state A to have 130 cases per week and B to have 5114. In state A it would be 29 cases among the vaccinated and 101 among the unvaccinated. In B it would be 250 among the vaccinated, 4864 among the unvaccinated. That's a rate of 41 per million among the vaccinated in A, and 833 per million in B. A vaccinated person is 20 times as likely to get infected in state B. For the unvaccinated, the rate in A is 337 per million and in B it is 6949. An unvaccinated person is 20 times as likely to get infected in B. Hospitalizations would be 1.4 in A and 18.8 in B. In A that would be 0.1 among the vaccinated and 1.3 among the unvaccinated. That's 0.14 per million and 4.3 per million respectively. In B it would be 0.3 vaccinated hospitalizations per week and 18.5 unvaccinated. Those are rates of 1 per million and 26.4 per million. A vaccinated person in B is 7 times as likely to be hospitalized as a vaccinated person in A. For unvaccinated people, it is 6 times. Note that in either state, vaccinated people are much better off than unvaccinated, both in terms of cases and hospitalizations. But in B, the state with the low vaccination rate, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are quite a bit worse off than those in B, the state with the high vaccination rate. [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/pandemic-of-unvaccinated-continues-to-rage-as-states-set-new-covid-records https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/pandemic-of-unvaccin...
- munk-a 5y ago
  I am stealing this graphic as it's amazingly well put together thank you for the resource. The main roadblock I often find when talking about vaccination to people is this group effect "You can get vaccinated if you want but I'll make the choice for my body." without realizing that they're also potentially making the decision for my body as well. Maybe a good way to reframe this is to shift it off of authoritarianism vs. individualism to authoritarianism vs. authoritarianism. One side may be saying that everyone needs to get vaccinated - but the other side is saying "I reserve the right to get everyone else sick" by not getting vaccinated.

skyde 5y ago

you don’t have to stay home you just can’t be wrekless and go kill people. Next thing you will say you should not need a driver license to drive a car because it limit your freedom?

beeboop 5y ago
I was thinking the other day how odd that these people aren't all up in arms about being required by law to wear a seatbelt. In my opinion that's much more controlling than requiring a vaccine.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  You think it's "much more controlling" to be required to wear a device which has been in existence for decades and shown to pose no health risks whatsoever, while driving an automobile, than it is to be required to take an experimental injection with adverse events being reported at 100x the rate of flu shots to go to public indoor spaces?
  - skyde 5y ago
    if you like number think about this. There is 25% chance you get covid this year and if you get covid there is 0.5% (IFR) chance you will die and 100% chance you will infect 7 other people. How does this compare with the odd of adverse reactions to the vaccine?
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      > if you get covid there is 0.5% (IFR) chance you will die and 100% chance you will infect 7 other people lol you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about.
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into cheap flamewar, and definitely not on the most flaming flamewar topic of the moment. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

LeoPanthera 5y ago

Indoor entertainment is not necessary for "participating in life".

Grakel 5y ago
You're truly special.
- dang 5y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here. No more of this, and please don't take HN threads further into flamewar either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and definitely not on the most flaming flamewar topic of the moment. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tw04 5y ago

>If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations The government absolutely has the right to mandate vaccinations, they just have chosen not to. I've heard this repeated more than once and I don't know where people got it from. On top of the supreme court ruling, just about every state has a state-level law giving the governor the right to enforce vaccinations as well. https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1824/jacobson-v-massachusetts https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1824/jacobson-v-mas...

tzs 5y ago

> This seems ridiculous. If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations, then banning unvaccinated people from participating in life should also be outside of its authority. Are you trying to make a general argument, or an argument specific to just vaccinations. If the former, there is quite a bit of historical precedent that says otherwise. For example, the government does not have the authority to mandate that I have a motor vehicle, but they can ban me from walking or using a non-motorized vehicle on the freeways. I'm sure you can think of plenty of other examples where the government can require that you have something or meet particular conditions in order to do some activity or enter some place, but they cannot mandate that you have that something or meet those conditions. > We should not be taking further steps to protect people who are able but not willing to be vaccinated. Unvaccinated people increase risk for vaccinated people. There was a useful infographic in this Ars article [1]. Imagine two hypothetical states, each with a population of 1 million. State A is 70% vaccinated, state B 30%. What you'd expect is state A to have 130 cases per week and B to have 5114. In state A it would be 29 cases among the vaccinated and 101 among the unvaccinated. In B it would be 250 among the vaccinated, 4864 among the unvaccinated. That's a rate of 41 per million among the vaccinated in A, and 833 per million in B. A vaccinated person is 20 times as likely to get infected in state B. For the unvaccinated, the rate in A is 337 per million and in B it is 6949. An unvaccinated person is 20 times as likely to get infected in B. Hospitalizations would be 1.4 in A and 18.8 in B. In A that would be 0.1 among the vaccinated and 1.3 among the unvaccinated. That's 0.14 per million and 4.3 per million respectively. In B it would be 0.3 vaccinated hospitalizations per week and 18.5 unvaccinated. Those are rates of 1 per million and 26.4 per million. A vaccinated person in B is 7 times as likely to be hospitalized as a vaccinated person in A. For unvaccinated people, it is 6 times. Note that in either state, vaccinated people are much better off than unvaccinated, both in terms of cases and hospitalizations. But in B, the state with the low vaccination rate, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are quite a bit worse off than those in B, the state with the high vaccination rate. [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/pandemic-of-unvaccinated-continues-to-rage-as-states-set-new-covid-records https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/pandemic-of-unvaccin...

munk-a 5y ago
I am stealing this graphic as it's amazingly well put together thank you for the resource. The main roadblock I often find when talking about vaccination to people is this group effect "You can get vaccinated if you want but I'll make the choice for my body." without realizing that they're also potentially making the decision for my body as well. Maybe a good way to reframe this is to shift it off of authoritarianism vs. individualism to authoritarianism vs. authoritarianism. One side may be saying that everyone needs to get vaccinated - but the other side is saying "I reserve the right to get everyone else sick" by not getting vaccinated.