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NYC Emergency Executive Order 225

57 points by nanis 5y ago

cft 5y ago
Big pharma in action
- beeboop 5y ago
  I blame rampant corruption, self dealing, and identity politics. Americans have massive distrust in their leadership for very good reasons. That trust is really important for these exact situations. We all know all of our politicians are dishonest fuckheads - why believe them about COVID or vaccines? I am pro vaccine and I am vaccinated - just explaining that I understand people's reluctance to believe anything they hear.
  - cft 5y ago
    I am vaccinated too, since January. HN is no longer able to understand nuance, thus we are both downvoted. I remember the HN of founders in 2010. Now it's HN of employees. Very different forum.
    - tzs 5y ago
      There was no nuance in "Big pharma in action".
  - tonfreed 5y ago
    Not just that, the southern states were flooded with OxyContin and had the opioid epidemic as a result of flagrant big pharma abuse. It's entirely understandable that they've burnt all goodwill there
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    I’d be inclined to agree if it was actually people distrusting leadership in general, but too many instead the opposition one side while gobbling up whatever their team is spewing without question.
Grakel 5y ago
Yeah this is way outside the government's power. We don't derive our right to be out in public from the government.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  This order has nothing to do with being "out" at all.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  "Indoor Entertainment, Recreation, Dining and Fitness Settings" AFAIK these aren't public spaces
  - txsoftwaredev 5y ago
    That seems much worse. Forcing a private "space" to become the covid police.
    - skyde 5y ago
      it’s no different then not allowing minor in a strip club
      - verdverm 5y ago
        The difference is that your example is a law while the linked is an executive order.
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    these are public spaces because members of the public congregate there. If you think these are private spaces, who do they belong to? Hopefully the business owners, not the government. In that case this order is even more troubling since it prohibits certain actions in private spaces, which is equivalent to prohibiting certain actions altogether, which makes this equivalent to making it illegal to be unvaccinated.
danhak 5y ago
-
- darkwizard42 5y ago
  I think the implication is if you aren't able to be vaccinated, until sufficient overall immunity is reached you probably shouldn't be in areas where the disease is easily passed around
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    how is "sufficient overall immunity" aka herd immunity going to be reached? a combination of vaccines and infections. How will we get there if 40% refuse vaccines and we also prevent them from being infected?
    - tzs 5y ago
      This was specifically about people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons. They are only a small fraction of the unvaccinated, and usually the medical reasons that keep them from getting vaccinated also make COVID particularly dangerous for them.
- munk-a 5y ago
  It allows presentation of the NYC COVID Safe Pass and the NY State Excelsior Pass - I'm not a NY resident and am not certain what these cover but medical exemptions may already be baked into those proofs of vaccination. Otherwise yea - I agree that there isn't an accommodation for those with medical conditions precluding vaccination. However, I think the negative test result in lieu is a very different question - those tests are highly effective but allowing test proofs in lieu of vaccination would likely burden the testing framework (which I believe is still freely offered by the government in the states) and would allow a route for objectors to avoid vaccination. I believe at this point the primary goal is to increase vaccination proportions to prevent more disease waves.
Someone1234 5y ago
The current title isn't great ("NYC Emergency Executive Order 225"). In particular for those currently living outside of NYC. Maybe go with the subtitle instead: > Requiring COVID-19 Vaccination for Indoor Entertainment, Recreation, Dining and Fitness Settings Since it is more descriptive of the content.
- rolph 5y ago
  thanx for the full title, That helps indicate content.
- munk-a 5y ago
  I think there is some value in retaining the fact that this requirement is being enacted via an emergency order though.
aerehtskl 5y ago
It is time to start shooting these fucking socialists. They let 40,000 American left to be murdered in Afghanistan. They destroyed millions of small businesses last year. They have raped us trillions of dollars that go right into their pockets. They are willing to kill our kids with their problematic vaccines and forced masking. Seriously. Enough talk. Death to every fucking socialist.
aerehtskl 5y ago
FUCK EVERY SOCIALIST PIECE OF SHIT DIE YOU MOTHERFUCKERS! DIE!
aerehtskl 5y ago
FUCK ALL YOU DOWNVOTING SOCIALISTS!! FUCKING DIE!
- Arkanum 5y ago
  This should probably be flagged as well.
  - kitanata 5y ago
    He just keeps reposting. :/
txsoftwaredev 5y ago
Looking forward to the vaccinated only water fountains next. The US government has found the ultimate power grab that they can now use to control the population at their desire. This has never been about them caring about the health of their citizens (feel free to smoke and drink all you want). Those in power aren't even able to follow their ridiculous health standards they've created. One politician after another is spotted not wearing a mask, going to places they told us not to etc.. It's such a sad state we are in now and I fear we've gone too far to undo it.
- Arkanum 5y ago
  > Looking forward to the vaccinated only water fountains next. This feels a touch melodramatic. I understand the point you want to make, but maybe a 1984 reference would work better. Vaccination is (barring some relatively uncommon exceptions) a choice, and not something that you have no control over.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Okay, how about comparing it religions then? After all, you have the choice to convert to a different religion.
- HiJon89 5y ago
  Or maybe the sad state is that there are still people dying every day from a pandemic THAT WE HAVE A SAFE AND EFFECTIVE VACCINE FOR.
- skyde 5y ago
  How being vaccinated allow the government to control you? Are you implying there is a chip in the vaccine allowing them to control you? I’m half joking each time i see a comment like that I don’t understand what you think the government is trying to achieve by vaccinating you. The only evil thing I can think of is some politicians would make more money if more people get vaccinated because they own shares of the company producing the vaccine. But if that’s is the case nothing is stopping you to go ahead and also buy stock of pharma
deleted 5y ago
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bwship 5y ago
Well I have been shouting at the heavens about how this was overreach since March of 2020. Good to see many more people on HN realizing what is playing out. Moved the frickin whole family out of LA cause I knew they weren't gonna stop. Now it is a contest between CA and NY of who can be the most authoritarian. Meanwhile, down here in the south, everyone is fairly over this charade.
- piva00 5y ago
  Down there in the south there are mobile mortuaries being moved and states of emergency being declared. Lots of freedom it seems.
  - bwship 5y ago
    Not in Charleston. Not even sure what moving mobile mortuaries are, but there aren't any of those on my block.
  - txsoftwaredev 5y ago
    The flood of illegals has brought in a lot of people with covid, among other diseases to the south. If the federal government cared about covid and my safety they would protect the southern border. Just more evidence of how two faced they are behaving.
- jwilber 5y ago
  I’ve spent the last year between New York and California and I have felt zero authoritarian measures in my life. Not one aspect of my life has changed aside from donning a mask when I go to and from a public building. And even that is a personal choice - legally it’s completely optional.
munk-a 5y ago
I am a bit surprised this was passed but I do think that public sentiment in NYC has reached a point of it being acceptable. I think the real challenge through this pandemic has been juggling public opinion and trying to encourage high levels of vaccination while also avoiding large riots in the streets that will only further the spread of the pandemic. The disease is a challenge at this time - but managing the public's reaction seems to be the more difficult issue. We've solved the technical problems of this pandemic (we have a vaccine) now we just need to solve the social side of it - distributing it globally and making sure everyone gets vaccinated. To this end NYC seems a pretty good test bed due to the strong liberal leanings there and high vaccination rates.
- verdverm 5y ago
  It wasn't passed. It is an executive order by the mayor and not a law.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > and high vaccination rates. It's high relative to the south or florida but the order says the vaccination rate is 56%. Seattle has a 78% vaccination rate [1] and SF has a 71% rate [2]. NYC is pretty low rate of vaccination relative to major libral cities. It seems that boston, a comparable east-coast city has a closer, but still higher vaccination rate of 65% (link somewhat out of date) [3] [1] https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/health/communicable-diseases/documents/C19/king-county-progress-vaccine-delivery.ashx?la=en https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/health/communicable-dis... [2] https://sf.gov/data/covid-19-vaccinations https://sf.gov/data/covid-19-vaccinations [3] https://www.mass.gov/doc/boston-vaccination-data-report-july-23-2021/download https://www.mass.gov/doc/boston-vaccination-data-report-july...
  - BCM43 5y ago
    FWIW, the Seattle rate you've cited is for people 12 or older, while the 56% NYC rate is for everyone in the city. NYC's vaccination rate for those over 12 is closer to 75%.
  - TMWNN 5y ago
bwship 5y ago
You can have their vaccine. I'll take my chances with my immune system, thanks.
- munk-a 5y ago
  This isn't how pandemics work - and this is a large part of why I emigrated from America. There is this insane conflation of liberty and personal freedoms. You aren't getting vaccinated for yourself - you're getting vaccinated to help create a safe environment where this pandemic can be stamped out. We've lived with this for more than a year now - it isn't just going to magically disappear and, if we haven't done anything by winter, it's going to get worse again.
  - bwship 5y ago
    Worse in what way. A .5% death rate. I'm not getting vaccinated specifically for my own health reasons.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      If you can't get vaccinated for health reasons you're exactly the type of person vaccinations help protect.
- echelon 5y ago
  Stay away from me and my family, thanks.
  - txsoftwaredev 5y ago
    If you and your family are vaccinated then you have nothing to worry about. Right?
    - echelon 5y ago
      That's not true. Unvaccinated have a much higher probability of catching, spreading, and evolving new variants of the virus. Vaccination protects individuals, but does not prevent the disease. There are still vaccinated patients showing up to hospital ERs (granted, at a substantially lower number than unvaccinated). If 80+% of people get vaccinated, the virus will have a much harder time spreading and evolving. As it stands, the virus is still having a field day. I don't want unvaccinated, higher probability infectors/spreaders around me and my loved ones. If you love this country, do something for your fellow Americans and get vaccinated.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ehbl34 5y ago
How about we get some rope and some lime. It is about time.
ehbl34 5y ago
DeBlasio should lose his citizenship. In fact let's ship him to a country of his choice: Afghanistan or China.
nanis 5y ago
> Section 1. I hereby order that a covered entity shall not permit a patron, full- or part-time employee, intern, volunteer, or contractor to enter a covered premises without displaying proof of vaccination and identification bearing the same identifying information as the proof of vaccination. While people in other countries may be used to always having to carry identification, this is rather provocative in a city and state which does not require identification, among other situations, when you register to vote or vote. It is also deputizing museum workers, gym owners, restaurant waitstaff as identity checkers. This will presumably drive all those business to install identity check solutions used by bars but expand their used to a whole range of activities. It is an amazing amount of extra tracking/surveillance that is being introduced to everyone's everyday activities and is an intrusion into the lives of all, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > It is an amazing amount of extra tracking/surveillance that is being introduced to everyone's everyday activities and is an intrusion into the lives of all, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. A simple regulation could also make this safe from surveillance while still allowing verification: Allow people to check identity, but make it illegal to store or share this information. There are so many small, simple laws that could go long ways to protect people from surveillance while still allowing us to do new things to protect us. I wish we got 10% of the obvious laws many people want.
  - mikecoles 5y ago
    I agree. Keeping only 10% of the laws is a fine start.
- derriz 5y ago
  "this is rather provocative in a city and state which does not require identification" I've spent not more than a couple of weeks in total in the NY and during that time I was required to produce identification more times than I had in years spent in various continental European countries - where in theory you were obliged to carry Id with you at all times. Just because I wanted to buy a beer or order wine with food in a bar or restaurant. I was in my late 20s at the time. It's just what you're used to.
deleted 5y ago
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bagacrap 5y ago
This seems ridiculous. If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations, then banning unvaccinated people from participating in life should also be outside of its authority. We should not be taking further steps to protect people who are able but not willing to be vaccinated. If you are unable to be vaccinated, then you can stay home voluntarily (this order just makes it mandatory which doesn't seem like an improvement).
- skyde 5y ago
  you don’t have to stay home you just can’t be wrekless and go kill people. Next thing you will say you should not need a driver license to drive a car because it limit your freedom?
  - beeboop 5y ago
    I was thinking the other day how odd that these people aren't all up in arms about being required by law to wear a seatbelt. In my opinion that's much more controlling than requiring a vaccine.
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      You think it's "much more controlling" to be required to wear a device which has been in existence for decades and shown to pose no health risks whatsoever, while driving an automobile, than it is to be required to take an experimental injection with adverse events being reported at 100x the rate of flu shots to go to public indoor spaces?
      - skyde 5y ago
        if you like number think about this. There is 25% chance you get covid this year and if you get covid there is 0.5% (IFR) chance you will die and 100% chance you will infect 7 other people. How does this compare with the odd of adverse reactions to the vaccine?
        5y ago
jwilber 5y ago
Why is this post getting flagged? Whether you agree or not, hiding it won’t make it go away.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Presumably because of the overwhelming number of comments from people unable to express themselves in a civil manner.
  - meowster 5y ago
    Then shouldn't the comments be flagged, not the post itself?
- beeboop 5y ago
  It doesn't create interesting conversation. Already there are anti-vaxxers here pounding their chest and asserting themselves.
  - gillytech 5y ago
    It's not just about anit-vaxxing. It's about the erosion of civil liberties. I think these conversations should be had.
    - HNPoliticalBias 5y ago
      You share a country with these heathens. The time for conversations is long over. Time to buy ammo.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
First read about this idea in March 2020 when it was going around various conspiracy-related circles. Now you see people making extraordinarily dishonest arguments like, "well you need a yellow fever vaccine to go to Zambia and this is basically the same thing" or "this is just like needing a driver's license." Someone on Twitter aptly described this phenomenon as the "that's a crazy conspiracy theory"-to-"it's always been like this" pipeline. You can tell that they are trying to roll this and the other mandates out as quickly as possible before it becomes clearer to people that keeping their "fully vaccinated" status (and the attendant freedoms which used to just be a matter of course in 2019) will require getting re-injected at regular intervals in perpetuity. All these permanent changes to our lives and erosion of our freedom, being meekly accepted to combat (supposedly) a virus that's killed a fraction of the number who died in the 1918 Spanish flu. It's really something to watch.
nanis 5y ago
Is there really a legitimate reason for this post to be flagged? This is the literal text of the rules one must obey if one is going to set foot in NYC.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  I think it's reasonable to flag posts for the content of its comments as well as the content of the post itself.
  - colpabar 5y ago
    Even if all the comments you find problematic are flagged and downvoted so that no one can even see them? Would you make the same argument for all the conspiracy theories regarding Apple's CSAM scanning announcement; that we shouldn't be allowed to talk about it because there's too many bad comments?
  - munk-a 5y ago
    That unfortunately opens us up to the heckler's veto[1] it's a fine balance to screen content that will produce interesting discussions while also not excluding content that enrages a portion of the user base. I do think it's quite fair that this article was flagged since the comment section quickly got mobbed by some pretty rabid commenters and HN doesn't want to deal with that - but it does have a chilling effect. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto
    - skyde 5y ago
      i’m curious what you think of an alternate approach. Look up Larry sanger Encyclosphere! Basically instead of censorship simply classify the content and let the consumer decide.
      - munk-a 5y ago
        I tend to browse in ShowDead but I think it's not a healthy approach to the majority of folks - flagging comments as controversial can end up having the opposite effect from desired since we tend to be drawn toward controversy and the spectacle of it all. HN has an extremely good moderation system. It has very level headed folks like dang that only use the very lightest touch and the fact that it has downvotes is good - but prevents downvoting replies is even better since it trains people to be more conservative about blindly downvoting things they simply disagree with. There is definitely an issue with downvote brigading on some articles[1] that it hasn't been able to deal with sufficiently but it's relatively organic brigading and tends to be limited to politically charged topics (and vaccination is definitely a politically charged topic in the US). The solution of slicing political topics out of the general discussion pool seems reasonable as a response and while I would like to have a discussion on the topic with all the interesting people that hang out on HN I can accept that this message board isn't oriented to support that kind of a discussion and is only damaged when such political hot topics rise to prominence. Oh - if this seems counter to my comment above it's because it partially is. I think this is a hard problem to solve and I don't like any of the solutions out there. HN's moderation system is the is the worst moderation system out there... except for all the others we've tried. 1. Not on most see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and the comment on brigading.
dang 5y ago
All: if you're going to comment in a thread like this, make sure you're up on the guidelines. In particular, please don't post flamewar comments. It leads to tedious, repetitive nastiness. Not what this site is for. That implies not posting predictable or shallow comments, because when the topic is super inflammatory like this one, those automatically count as flamebait. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
hamburgerwah 5y ago
It's strange to me that the very same people who are absolutely adamant that the government be kept out of the exam room for some things are now codifying totalitarian requirements for other medical procedures.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  Compare it to the hot takes on the voter ID issue. Never mind that PoC vaccination stats are dwarfed by white people (with good historical reasons) thus de facto segregating them from everyday life. I’m against both as a concept BTW but my opinion is moot as a non-American.
- munk-a 5y ago
  I feel like this comes back to whether something is a societal issue or not. I'm not totally certain what other exam room procedure you're talking about since you left it quite vague but I assume you're talking about proposed abortion access or gender reassignment limitations - if I've guessed wrong please feel free to correct me and clarify your statement. Both of those procedures are exceedingly personal medical decisions the ramifications of which will never spread beyond yourself or, at most, your immediate family. The question of vaccination isn't an individual decision - it's a societal decision. We all (or most, technically) get vaccinated so that we can curtail an ongoing pandemic, it isn't effective if done to only a small segment of the population and the US is currently sitting just short of 60% vaccinated with at least one dose. The big difference is between it validly being a personal choice or being something necessary for society to function.
  - hamburgerwah 5y ago
    I understand that your opinion is that vaccines are different from other medical procedures because you are using an ends justify the means argument that you think is valid there. I disagree fundamentally and I do not believe that the government has any right to coerce people into medical procedures under our constitution. To be clear I am vaccinated and I believe the current covid vaccines benefits outweigh its risks relative to the risks of covid. There is no evidence that these types of coercion tactics actually increase vaccinations. It's an emerging field of study but there is a growing body of evidence that they actually decrease vaccination acceptance. 2-3% of people are medically contraindicated from getting some or even all vaccines because the risks of the vaccine due to their age, existing illness, genetics and medications are higher than the risk of the diseases prevented. I think it makes more sense to keep the government out of the exam room in all cases.

57 points by nanis 5y ago

cft 5y ago

Big pharma in action

beeboop 5y ago
I blame rampant corruption, self dealing, and identity politics. Americans have massive distrust in their leadership for very good reasons. That trust is really important for these exact situations. We all know all of our politicians are dishonest fuckheads - why believe them about COVID or vaccines? I am pro vaccine and I am vaccinated - just explaining that I understand people's reluctance to believe anything they hear.
- cft 5y ago
  I am vaccinated too, since January. HN is no longer able to understand nuance, thus we are both downvoted. I remember the HN of founders in 2010. Now it's HN of employees. Very different forum.
  - tzs 5y ago
    There was no nuance in "Big pharma in action".
- tonfreed 5y ago
  Not just that, the southern states were flooded with OxyContin and had the opioid epidemic as a result of flagrant big pharma abuse. It's entirely understandable that they've burnt all goodwill there
- the_only_law 5y ago
  I’d be inclined to agree if it was actually people distrusting leadership in general, but too many instead the opposition one side while gobbling up whatever their team is spewing without question.

Grakel 5y ago

Yeah this is way outside the government's power. We don't derive our right to be out in public from the government.

LeoPanthera 5y ago
This order has nothing to do with being "out" at all.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
"Indoor Entertainment, Recreation, Dining and Fitness Settings" AFAIK these aren't public spaces
- txsoftwaredev 5y ago
  That seems much worse. Forcing a private "space" to become the covid police.
  - skyde 5y ago
    it’s no different then not allowing minor in a strip club
    - verdverm 5y ago
      The difference is that your example is a law while the linked is an executive order.
- bagacrap 5y ago
  these are public spaces because members of the public congregate there. If you think these are private spaces, who do they belong to? Hopefully the business owners, not the government. In that case this order is even more troubling since it prohibits certain actions in private spaces, which is equivalent to prohibiting certain actions altogether, which makes this equivalent to making it illegal to be unvaccinated.

danhak 5y ago

darkwizard42 5y ago
I think the implication is if you aren't able to be vaccinated, until sufficient overall immunity is reached you probably shouldn't be in areas where the disease is easily passed around
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bagacrap 5y ago
  how is "sufficient overall immunity" aka herd immunity going to be reached? a combination of vaccines and infections. How will we get there if 40% refuse vaccines and we also prevent them from being infected?
  - tzs 5y ago
    This was specifically about people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons. They are only a small fraction of the unvaccinated, and usually the medical reasons that keep them from getting vaccinated also make COVID particularly dangerous for them.
munk-a 5y ago
It allows presentation of the NYC COVID Safe Pass and the NY State Excelsior Pass - I'm not a NY resident and am not certain what these cover but medical exemptions may already be baked into those proofs of vaccination. Otherwise yea - I agree that there isn't an accommodation for those with medical conditions precluding vaccination. However, I think the negative test result in lieu is a very different question - those tests are highly effective but allowing test proofs in lieu of vaccination would likely burden the testing framework (which I believe is still freely offered by the government in the states) and would allow a route for objectors to avoid vaccination. I believe at this point the primary goal is to increase vaccination proportions to prevent more disease waves.

Someone1234 5y ago

The current title isn't great ("NYC Emergency Executive Order 225"). In particular for those currently living outside of NYC. Maybe go with the subtitle instead: > Requiring COVID-19 Vaccination for Indoor Entertainment, Recreation, Dining and Fitness Settings Since it is more descriptive of the content.

rolph 5y ago
thanx for the full title, That helps indicate content.
munk-a 5y ago
I think there is some value in retaining the fact that this requirement is being enacted via an emergency order though.

aerehtskl 5y ago

It is time to start shooting these fucking socialists. They let 40,000 American left to be murdered in Afghanistan. They destroyed millions of small businesses last year. They have raped us trillions of dollars that go right into their pockets. They are willing to kill our kids with their problematic vaccines and forced masking. Seriously. Enough talk. Death to every fucking socialist.

aerehtskl 5y ago

FUCK EVERY SOCIALIST PIECE OF SHIT DIE YOU MOTHERFUCKERS! DIE!

aerehtskl 5y ago

FUCK ALL YOU DOWNVOTING SOCIALISTS!! FUCKING DIE!

Arkanum 5y ago
This should probably be flagged as well.
- kitanata 5y ago
  He just keeps reposting. :/

txsoftwaredev 5y ago

Looking forward to the vaccinated only water fountains next. The US government has found the ultimate power grab that they can now use to control the population at their desire. This has never been about them caring about the health of their citizens (feel free to smoke and drink all you want). Those in power aren't even able to follow their ridiculous health standards they've created. One politician after another is spotted not wearing a mask, going to places they told us not to etc.. It's such a sad state we are in now and I fear we've gone too far to undo it.

Arkanum 5y ago
> Looking forward to the vaccinated only water fountains next. This feels a touch melodramatic. I understand the point you want to make, but maybe a 1984 reference would work better. Vaccination is (barring some relatively uncommon exceptions) a choice, and not something that you have no control over.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Okay, how about comparing it religions then? After all, you have the choice to convert to a different religion.
HiJon89 5y ago
Or maybe the sad state is that there are still people dying every day from a pandemic THAT WE HAVE A SAFE AND EFFECTIVE VACCINE FOR.
skyde 5y ago
How being vaccinated allow the government to control you? Are you implying there is a chip in the vaccine allowing them to control you? I’m half joking each time i see a comment like that I don’t understand what you think the government is trying to achieve by vaccinating you. The only evil thing I can think of is some politicians would make more money if more people get vaccinated because they own shares of the company producing the vaccine. But if that’s is the case nothing is stopping you to go ahead and also buy stock of pharma

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bwship 5y ago

Well I have been shouting at the heavens about how this was overreach since March of 2020. Good to see many more people on HN realizing what is playing out. Moved the frickin whole family out of LA cause I knew they weren't gonna stop. Now it is a contest between CA and NY of who can be the most authoritarian. Meanwhile, down here in the south, everyone is fairly over this charade.

piva00 5y ago
Down there in the south there are mobile mortuaries being moved and states of emergency being declared. Lots of freedom it seems.
- bwship 5y ago
  Not in Charleston. Not even sure what moving mobile mortuaries are, but there aren't any of those on my block.
- txsoftwaredev 5y ago
  The flood of illegals has brought in a lot of people with covid, among other diseases to the south. If the federal government cared about covid and my safety they would protect the southern border. Just more evidence of how two faced they are behaving.
jwilber 5y ago
I’ve spent the last year between New York and California and I have felt zero authoritarian measures in my life. Not one aspect of my life has changed aside from donning a mask when I go to and from a public building. And even that is a personal choice - legally it’s completely optional.

munk-a 5y ago

I am a bit surprised this was passed but I do think that public sentiment in NYC has reached a point of it being acceptable. I think the real challenge through this pandemic has been juggling public opinion and trying to encourage high levels of vaccination while also avoiding large riots in the streets that will only further the spread of the pandemic. The disease is a challenge at this time - but managing the public's reaction seems to be the more difficult issue. We've solved the technical problems of this pandemic (we have a vaccine) now we just need to solve the social side of it - distributing it globally and making sure everyone gets vaccinated. To this end NYC seems a pretty good test bed due to the strong liberal leanings there and high vaccination rates.

verdverm 5y ago
It wasn't passed. It is an executive order by the mayor and not a law.
vineyardmike 5y ago
> and high vaccination rates. It's high relative to the south or florida but the order says the vaccination rate is 56%. Seattle has a 78% vaccination rate [1] and SF has a 71% rate [2]. NYC is pretty low rate of vaccination relative to major libral cities. It seems that boston, a comparable east-coast city has a closer, but still higher vaccination rate of 65% (link somewhat out of date) [3] [1] https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/health/communicable-diseases/documents/C19/king-county-progress-vaccine-delivery.ashx?la=en https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/health/communicable-dis... [2] https://sf.gov/data/covid-19-vaccinations https://sf.gov/data/covid-19-vaccinations [3] https://www.mass.gov/doc/boston-vaccination-data-report-july-23-2021/download https://www.mass.gov/doc/boston-vaccination-data-report-july...
- BCM43 5y ago
  FWIW, the Seattle rate you've cited is for people 12 or older, while the 56% NYC rate is for everyone in the city. NYC's vaccination rate for those over 12 is closer to 75%.
- TMWNN 5y ago

bwship 5y ago

You can have their vaccine. I'll take my chances with my immune system, thanks.

munk-a 5y ago
This isn't how pandemics work - and this is a large part of why I emigrated from America. There is this insane conflation of liberty and personal freedoms. You aren't getting vaccinated for yourself - you're getting vaccinated to help create a safe environment where this pandemic can be stamped out. We've lived with this for more than a year now - it isn't just going to magically disappear and, if we haven't done anything by winter, it's going to get worse again.
- bwship 5y ago
  Worse in what way. A .5% death rate. I'm not getting vaccinated specifically for my own health reasons.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    If you can't get vaccinated for health reasons you're exactly the type of person vaccinations help protect.
echelon 5y ago
Stay away from me and my family, thanks.
- txsoftwaredev 5y ago
  If you and your family are vaccinated then you have nothing to worry about. Right?
  - echelon 5y ago
    That's not true. Unvaccinated have a much higher probability of catching, spreading, and evolving new variants of the virus. Vaccination protects individuals, but does not prevent the disease. There are still vaccinated patients showing up to hospital ERs (granted, at a substantially lower number than unvaccinated). If 80+% of people get vaccinated, the virus will have a much harder time spreading and evolving. As it stands, the virus is still having a field day. I don't want unvaccinated, higher probability infectors/spreaders around me and my loved ones. If you love this country, do something for your fellow Americans and get vaccinated.

deleted 5y ago

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ehbl34 5y ago

How about we get some rope and some lime. It is about time.

ehbl34 5y ago

DeBlasio should lose his citizenship. In fact let's ship him to a country of his choice: Afghanistan or China.

nanis 5y ago

> Section 1. I hereby order that a covered entity shall not permit a patron, full- or part-time employee, intern, volunteer, or contractor to enter a covered premises without displaying proof of vaccination and identification bearing the same identifying information as the proof of vaccination. While people in other countries may be used to always having to carry identification, this is rather provocative in a city and state which does not require identification, among other situations, when you register to vote or vote. It is also deputizing museum workers, gym owners, restaurant waitstaff as identity checkers. This will presumably drive all those business to install identity check solutions used by bars but expand their used to a whole range of activities. It is an amazing amount of extra tracking/surveillance that is being introduced to everyone's everyday activities and is an intrusion into the lives of all, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

vineyardmike 5y ago
> It is an amazing amount of extra tracking/surveillance that is being introduced to everyone's everyday activities and is an intrusion into the lives of all, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. A simple regulation could also make this safe from surveillance while still allowing verification: Allow people to check identity, but make it illegal to store or share this information. There are so many small, simple laws that could go long ways to protect people from surveillance while still allowing us to do new things to protect us. I wish we got 10% of the obvious laws many people want.
- mikecoles 5y ago
  I agree. Keeping only 10% of the laws is a fine start.
derriz 5y ago
"this is rather provocative in a city and state which does not require identification" I've spent not more than a couple of weeks in total in the NY and during that time I was required to produce identification more times than I had in years spent in various continental European countries - where in theory you were obliged to carry Id with you at all times. Just because I wanted to buy a beer or order wine with food in a bar or restaurant. I was in my late 20s at the time. It's just what you're used to.

deleted 5y ago

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bagacrap 5y ago

This seems ridiculous. If the government doesn't have the authority to mandate vaccinations, then banning unvaccinated people from participating in life should also be outside of its authority. We should not be taking further steps to protect people who are able but not willing to be vaccinated. If you are unable to be vaccinated, then you can stay home voluntarily (this order just makes it mandatory which doesn't seem like an improvement).

skyde 5y ago
you don’t have to stay home you just can’t be wrekless and go kill people. Next thing you will say you should not need a driver license to drive a car because it limit your freedom?
- beeboop 5y ago
  I was thinking the other day how odd that these people aren't all up in arms about being required by law to wear a seatbelt. In my opinion that's much more controlling than requiring a vaccine.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    You think it's "much more controlling" to be required to wear a device which has been in existence for decades and shown to pose no health risks whatsoever, while driving an automobile, than it is to be required to take an experimental injection with adverse events being reported at 100x the rate of flu shots to go to public indoor spaces?
    - skyde 5y ago
      if you like number think about this. There is 25% chance you get covid this year and if you get covid there is 0.5% (IFR) chance you will die and 100% chance you will infect 7 other people. How does this compare with the odd of adverse reactions to the vaccine?
      - 5y ago

jwilber 5y ago

Why is this post getting flagged? Whether you agree or not, hiding it won’t make it go away.

LeoPanthera 5y ago
Presumably because of the overwhelming number of comments from people unable to express themselves in a civil manner.
- meowster 5y ago
  Then shouldn't the comments be flagged, not the post itself?
beeboop 5y ago
It doesn't create interesting conversation. Already there are anti-vaxxers here pounding their chest and asserting themselves.
- gillytech 5y ago
  It's not just about anit-vaxxing. It's about the erosion of civil liberties. I think these conversations should be had.
  - HNPoliticalBias 5y ago
    You share a country with these heathens. The time for conversations is long over. Time to buy ammo.

AndrewBissell 5y ago

First read about this idea in March 2020 when it was going around various conspiracy-related circles. Now you see people making extraordinarily dishonest arguments like, "well you need a yellow fever vaccine to go to Zambia and this is basically the same thing" or "this is just like needing a driver's license." Someone on Twitter aptly described this phenomenon as the "that's a crazy conspiracy theory"-to-"it's always been like this" pipeline. You can tell that they are trying to roll this and the other mandates out as quickly as possible before it becomes clearer to people that keeping their "fully vaccinated" status (and the attendant freedoms which used to just be a matter of course in 2019) will require getting re-injected at regular intervals in perpetuity. All these permanent changes to our lives and erosion of our freedom, being meekly accepted to combat (supposedly) a virus that's killed a fraction of the number who died in the 1918 Spanish flu. It's really something to watch.

nanis 5y ago

Is there really a legitimate reason for this post to be flagged? This is the literal text of the rules one must obey if one is going to set foot in NYC.

LeoPanthera 5y ago
I think it's reasonable to flag posts for the content of its comments as well as the content of the post itself.
- colpabar 5y ago
  Even if all the comments you find problematic are flagged and downvoted so that no one can even see them? Would you make the same argument for all the conspiracy theories regarding Apple's CSAM scanning announcement; that we shouldn't be allowed to talk about it because there's too many bad comments?
- munk-a 5y ago
  That unfortunately opens us up to the heckler's veto[1] it's a fine balance to screen content that will produce interesting discussions while also not excluding content that enrages a portion of the user base. I do think it's quite fair that this article was flagged since the comment section quickly got mobbed by some pretty rabid commenters and HN doesn't want to deal with that - but it does have a chilling effect. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto
  - skyde 5y ago
    i’m curious what you think of an alternate approach. Look up Larry sanger Encyclosphere! Basically instead of censorship simply classify the content and let the consumer decide.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      I tend to browse in ShowDead but I think it's not a healthy approach to the majority of folks - flagging comments as controversial can end up having the opposite effect from desired since we tend to be drawn toward controversy and the spectacle of it all. HN has an extremely good moderation system. It has very level headed folks like dang that only use the very lightest touch and the fact that it has downvotes is good - but prevents downvoting replies is even better since it trains people to be more conservative about blindly downvoting things they simply disagree with. There is definitely an issue with downvote brigading on some articles[1] that it hasn't been able to deal with sufficiently but it's relatively organic brigading and tends to be limited to politically charged topics (and vaccination is definitely a politically charged topic in the US). The solution of slicing political topics out of the general discussion pool seems reasonable as a response and while I would like to have a discussion on the topic with all the interesting people that hang out on HN I can accept that this message board isn't oriented to support that kind of a discussion and is only damaged when such political hot topics rise to prominence. Oh - if this seems counter to my comment above it's because it partially is. I think this is a hard problem to solve and I don't like any of the solutions out there. HN's moderation system is the is the worst moderation system out there... except for all the others we've tried. 1. Not on most see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and the comment on brigading.

dang 5y ago

All: if you're going to comment in a thread like this, make sure you're up on the guidelines. In particular, please don't post flamewar comments. It leads to tedious, repetitive nastiness. Not what this site is for. That implies not posting predictable or shallow comments, because when the topic is super inflammatory like this one, those automatically count as flamebait. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

hamburgerwah 5y ago

It's strange to me that the very same people who are absolutely adamant that the government be kept out of the exam room for some things are now codifying totalitarian requirements for other medical procedures.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
Compare it to the hot takes on the voter ID issue. Never mind that PoC vaccination stats are dwarfed by white people (with good historical reasons) thus de facto segregating them from everyday life. I’m against both as a concept BTW but my opinion is moot as a non-American.
munk-a 5y ago
I feel like this comes back to whether something is a societal issue or not. I'm not totally certain what other exam room procedure you're talking about since you left it quite vague but I assume you're talking about proposed abortion access or gender reassignment limitations - if I've guessed wrong please feel free to correct me and clarify your statement. Both of those procedures are exceedingly personal medical decisions the ramifications of which will never spread beyond yourself or, at most, your immediate family. The question of vaccination isn't an individual decision - it's a societal decision. We all (or most, technically) get vaccinated so that we can curtail an ongoing pandemic, it isn't effective if done to only a small segment of the population and the US is currently sitting just short of 60% vaccinated with at least one dose. The big difference is between it validly being a personal choice or being something necessary for society to function.
- hamburgerwah 5y ago
  I understand that your opinion is that vaccines are different from other medical procedures because you are using an ends justify the means argument that you think is valid there. I disagree fundamentally and I do not believe that the government has any right to coerce people into medical procedures under our constitution. To be clear I am vaccinated and I believe the current covid vaccines benefits outweigh its risks relative to the risks of covid. There is no evidence that these types of coercion tactics actually increase vaccinations. It's an emerging field of study but there is a growing body of evidence that they actually decrease vaccination acceptance. 2-3% of people are medically contraindicated from getting some or even all vaccines because the risks of the vaccine due to their age, existing illness, genetics and medications are higher than the risk of the diseases prevented. I think it makes more sense to keep the government out of the exam room in all cases.