13 ms·

> “The terrorist watchlist is made up of people who are suspected of terrorism but who have not necessarily been charged with any crime,” Diachenko wrote. “In t

> “The terrorist watchlist is made up of people who are suspected of terrorism but who have not necessarily been charged with any crime,” Diachenko wrote. “In the wrong hands, this list could be used to oppress, harass, or persecute people on the list and their families. It could cause any number of personal and professional problems for innocent people whose names are included in the list.” I’m curious how many journalists are on the list. Now that we are pulling out of Afghanistan, we should reevaluate the other actions we took after 9/11. The patriot act deserves another look and possible edit.

ashtonkem 5y ago
Given the history of the FBI deciding that journalists and activists are actually terrorists to be suppressed? Probably quite a few.
- flatiron 5y ago
  Wouldn’t that be hard in practice though? Journalists typically have to travel for work so it would soon be apparent. And if they work for a big media outlet would be instantly litigated.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    This is the terrorism watch list, not the no fly list. Any of us could be on that list and it would take a while for us to know. The no fly list is much smaller, and far less ambiguous in its impact. You’re on that, you’ll find out the first time you try and fly.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Most journalists working for big outlets are docile when asked politely not to publish on a certain topic (either by their boss, or by government agencies), and that's how they avoid problems. See for example Glenn Greenwald's choice to leave the Guardian in order to publish the Snowden papers. For the french-speaking among us (not sure you can find english subtitles), the documentary "Les nouveaux chiens de garde" (the new watchdogs) goes into detail, interviewing sociologists and journalists, about the ties between the mainstream capitalist media establishment and other circles of power (industry, political parties). About the no-fly list specifically, you should really check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases . Some relevant quotes: > TSA refused to allow an Air France flight from Paris to Mexico to cross U.S. airspace because it was carrying Colombian journalist Hernando Calvo Ospina > On August 19, 2009, Air France flight AF-438 was not allowed to cross into U.S. airspace because of the presence on board of one Paul-Emile Dupret, a civil servant at the European Parliament for 18 years, who had written some articles criticizing the EU's policies toward Latin America because they are aligned too closely with those of the United States > A U.S. citizen, stranded in Colombia after being placed on the No Fly List as a result of having studied in Yemen > In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases Seems like it's not hard in practice for psychopaths in uniforms to abuse secretive powers given to them.
justinzollars 5y ago
I'm curious about this list too. For example are Islamic people I know on it? There are never any details on how to access these lists. The article could be fake for all I know.
programmarchy 5y ago
I thought that the Patriot Act was not renewed as of December 2020. It failed to pass in the Senate because Trump threatened a veto. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#cite_note-256 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#cite_note-256
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Interesting no one reported this. Either everyone missed this or it is still in place.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    Short answer, its spirit lives on. Not to search very far, FinCEN did not stop contacting financial institutions for 314(a) compliance. https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/314afactsheet.pdf https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/314afactsh...
    - datavirtue 5y ago
      I'm on a huge greenfield application project at a major bank to collect and send patriot act mandated information to FinCEN. The Patriot act expiring did not even come up and I had no idea it expired. I thought it was a shoe-in for rubber stamping.
  - MichaelApproved 5y ago
    EFF reported on it. https://eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/section-215-expired-year-review-2020 https://eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/section-215-expired-year-r... > "On March 15, 2020, Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act—a surveillance law with a rich history of government overreach and abuse—expired due to its sunset clause. Along with two other PATRIOT Act provisions, Section 215 lapsed after lawmakers failed to reach an agreement on a broader set of reforms to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)."
  - LeifCarrotson 5y ago
    In their defense, there has been an awful lot going on. The EFF reported on the expiration in the brief window when there were no authorizations: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expired-now-what https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expire... It's being reintroduced as the equally doublespeak "USA FREEDOM Reauthorization Act": https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172 I'd be interested to know if any behavior was changed during the few weeks that the permissions were not covered by either law.
syrrim 5y ago
Didn't the patriot act expire without renewal?
- dopamean 5y ago
  It did.
- weaksauce 5y ago
  huh interesting. So is it basically gone then or were there any permanent things that came from it?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Some things were made permanent under subsequent laws (or at least extended). For example, financial reporting for people depositing "large" amounts of cash. I think it started out at $10k under the patriot act. Now I think it's $5k. That is a good bit of cash, but it could easily be made selling a used car or something.
    - silisili 5y ago
      Unless it changed very recently, I'm pretty sure it's still 10k.
      - ls612 5y ago
        And that wasn’t from the Patriot act, it was from the Bank Secrecy laws of the 70s
        giantg2 5y ago
        I don't know where I saw the limit change - maybe I got that part confused. The patriot act did expand the bank secrecy act. https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/usa-patriot-act/ https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/usa-patriot-act/
  - 5y ago
pessimizer 5y ago
You mean being put on a restricted rights/law enforcement attention list with no due process? Definitely. I hate to be the slippery slope guy, but this began with gang affiliation lists. https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/07/28/police-gang-database-is-riddled-with-errors-and-has-ruined-lives-aldermen-say-so-why-is-it-cpd-still-using-it/ https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/07/28/police-gang-database... https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-gang-lists-can-have-life-long-impacts-and-are-questioned-by-legal/1251855/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-gang... https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/i-was-put-on-the-gang-list--can-this-come-off-of-m-1159609.html https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/i-was-put-on-the-gang-lis... https://www.policemag.com/340392/identifying-and-documenting-gang-members https://www.policemag.com/340392/identifying-and-documenting...
- tinalumfoil 5y ago
  > but this began with gang affiliation lists Civil courts have been able to exercise significant control of your life, including extended imprisonment without due process, for longer than these lists have been in effect. Frankly Americans have a lot fewer rights than they think they have, including the non-right of due process for being on a government list. Edit: To pre-empt some comments I know are coming, civil courts do not require due process in the way you probably think of due process: a civil court can act against you without giving you representation, without allowing you to have representation, without you present, in secret from the public, and even without notifying you EDIT2: While I'm soapboxing I'll note the power the civil court has over you isn't much different than the power three-letter agencies have over you (since they are usually given very broad mandates), it's just that civil courts have been around so much longer it's a good retort to people thinking they used to have rights. Whatever three-letters can't do to you is generally picked up by similar state agencies.
  - vmception 5y ago
    I've never had a good experience "pre-empting" comments that will inevitably be used to derail your thread. In any case, I was mostly thinking that it has to be a form of privilege to feel like a particular slippery slope hasn't happened yet. I think about how the word "privilege" is used, and its more like "exemption from some inconveniences that aren't obvious". Your post about people not noticing that civil courts and agencies have these power over assumed rights is a decent example of that.
beambot 5y ago
> The terrorist watchlist [...] could be used to oppress, harass, or persecute people on the list and their families. So... what was it actually used for? Wasn't this the same list that results in extra scrutiny at airports & whatnot -- wouldn't that count as harassment?
- staticautomatic 5y ago
  Yeah it’s already used for that purpose…by the government.
__blockcipher__ 5y ago
> The patriot act deserves another look and possible edit. Boy, that was the understatement of the year. The patriot act doesn’t need an edit or another look. It needs to be completely abolished, yesterday.
- arthurcolle 5y ago
  It expired already.
  - plorkyeran 5y ago
    Portions of it expired. Large parts did not.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      Dismantling the State's oppression system goes further than having legal constructs expire. As long as there is parliaments, police, prisons and borders, the State will use those to oppress people, and no amount of using the oppressor's tools (legislation) can change that. "Just" dismantle the psychopathic institutions that govern our societies (a revolution) and make sure anyone who attempts to rebuild them is look down on with contempt.
lostlogin 5y ago
> “In the wrong hands…” It’s in the wrong hands already - the wrong hands made the list, and there are plenty of examples of what has happened to various misidentified people over the years.
EGreg 5y ago
The PATRIOT act was largely the result of US foreign policy affecting domestic policy and erosion of civil liberties: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=349 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=349 In an ideal world, we'd be constantly re-evaluating both foreign and domestic policies, but will we? Remember this signed by Obama: https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-in... And he was not able to even close down Gitmo
lancemurdock 5y ago
> The patriot act deserves another look and possible edit. once you give the gov power, it is never given back to the people.
pibechorro 5y ago
Edit?
pibechorro 5y ago
Edit? Cancel it entirely.
irrational 5y ago
I wonder how many of the participants in the Jan 6th insurrection are on it.
sschueller 5y ago
Senator Ted Kennedy was mistakenly matched with someone on the list back in the Bush era around 2004. How can you make that mistake?
stjohnswarts 5y ago
There is nothing Patriotic about the Patriot Act and it needs to be fully rescinded. That law is a travesty in every way. It was knee jerk reactionary law that shouldn't have been in place more than a couple years.

ashtonkem 5y ago

Given the history of the FBI deciding that journalists and activists are actually terrorists to be suppressed? Probably quite a few.

flatiron 5y ago
Wouldn’t that be hard in practice though? Journalists typically have to travel for work so it would soon be apparent. And if they work for a big media outlet would be instantly litigated.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  This is the terrorism watch list, not the no fly list. Any of us could be on that list and it would take a while for us to know. The no fly list is much smaller, and far less ambiguous in its impact. You’re on that, you’ll find out the first time you try and fly.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Most journalists working for big outlets are docile when asked politely not to publish on a certain topic (either by their boss, or by government agencies), and that's how they avoid problems. See for example Glenn Greenwald's choice to leave the Guardian in order to publish the Snowden papers. For the french-speaking among us (not sure you can find english subtitles), the documentary "Les nouveaux chiens de garde" (the new watchdogs) goes into detail, interviewing sociologists and journalists, about the ties between the mainstream capitalist media establishment and other circles of power (industry, political parties). About the no-fly list specifically, you should really check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases . Some relevant quotes: > TSA refused to allow an Air France flight from Paris to Mexico to cross U.S. airspace because it was carrying Colombian journalist Hernando Calvo Ospina > On August 19, 2009, Air France flight AF-438 was not allowed to cross into U.S. airspace because of the presence on board of one Paul-Emile Dupret, a civil servant at the European Parliament for 18 years, who had written some articles criticizing the EU's policies toward Latin America because they are aligned too closely with those of the United States > A U.S. citizen, stranded in Colombia after being placed on the No Fly List as a result of having studied in Yemen > In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases Seems like it's not hard in practice for psychopaths in uniforms to abuse secretive powers given to them.

justinzollars 5y ago

I'm curious about this list too. For example are Islamic people I know on it? There are never any details on how to access these lists. The article could be fake for all I know.

programmarchy 5y ago

I thought that the Patriot Act was not renewed as of December 2020. It failed to pass in the Senate because Trump threatened a veto. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#cite_note-256 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#cite_note-256

ipaddr 5y ago
Interesting no one reported this. Either everyone missed this or it is still in place.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  Short answer, its spirit lives on. Not to search very far, FinCEN did not stop contacting financial institutions for 314(a) compliance. https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/314afactsheet.pdf https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/314afactsh...
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    I'm on a huge greenfield application project at a major bank to collect and send patriot act mandated information to FinCEN. The Patriot act expiring did not even come up and I had no idea it expired. I thought it was a shoe-in for rubber stamping.
- MichaelApproved 5y ago
  EFF reported on it. https://eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/section-215-expired-year-review-2020 https://eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/section-215-expired-year-r... > "On March 15, 2020, Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act—a surveillance law with a rich history of government overreach and abuse—expired due to its sunset clause. Along with two other PATRIOT Act provisions, Section 215 lapsed after lawmakers failed to reach an agreement on a broader set of reforms to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)."
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  In their defense, there has been an awful lot going on. The EFF reported on the expiration in the brief window when there were no authorizations: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expired-now-what https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expire... It's being reintroduced as the equally doublespeak "USA FREEDOM Reauthorization Act": https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172 I'd be interested to know if any behavior was changed during the few weeks that the permissions were not covered by either law.

syrrim 5y ago

Didn't the patriot act expire without renewal?

dopamean 5y ago
It did.
weaksauce 5y ago
huh interesting. So is it basically gone then or were there any permanent things that came from it?
- giantg2 5y ago
  Some things were made permanent under subsequent laws (or at least extended). For example, financial reporting for people depositing "large" amounts of cash. I think it started out at $10k under the patriot act. Now I think it's $5k. That is a good bit of cash, but it could easily be made selling a used car or something.
  - silisili 5y ago
    Unless it changed very recently, I'm pretty sure it's still 10k.
    - ls612 5y ago
      And that wasn’t from the Patriot act, it was from the Bank Secrecy laws of the 70s
      - giantg2 5y ago
        I don't know where I saw the limit change - maybe I got that part confused. The patriot act did expand the bank secrecy act. https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/usa-patriot-act/ https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/usa-patriot-act/
- 5y ago

pessimizer 5y ago

You mean being put on a restricted rights/law enforcement attention list with no due process? Definitely. I hate to be the slippery slope guy, but this began with gang affiliation lists. https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/07/28/police-gang-database-is-riddled-with-errors-and-has-ruined-lives-aldermen-say-so-why-is-it-cpd-still-using-it/ https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/07/28/police-gang-database... https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-gang-lists-can-have-life-long-impacts-and-are-questioned-by-legal/1251855/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-gang... https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/i-was-put-on-the-gang-list--can-this-come-off-of-m-1159609.html https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/i-was-put-on-the-gang-lis... https://www.policemag.com/340392/identifying-and-documenting-gang-members https://www.policemag.com/340392/identifying-and-documenting...

tinalumfoil 5y ago
> but this began with gang affiliation lists Civil courts have been able to exercise significant control of your life, including extended imprisonment without due process, for longer than these lists have been in effect. Frankly Americans have a lot fewer rights than they think they have, including the non-right of due process for being on a government list. Edit: To pre-empt some comments I know are coming, civil courts do not require due process in the way you probably think of due process: a civil court can act against you without giving you representation, without allowing you to have representation, without you present, in secret from the public, and even without notifying you EDIT2: While I'm soapboxing I'll note the power the civil court has over you isn't much different than the power three-letter agencies have over you (since they are usually given very broad mandates), it's just that civil courts have been around so much longer it's a good retort to people thinking they used to have rights. Whatever three-letters can't do to you is generally picked up by similar state agencies.
- vmception 5y ago
  I've never had a good experience "pre-empting" comments that will inevitably be used to derail your thread. In any case, I was mostly thinking that it has to be a form of privilege to feel like a particular slippery slope hasn't happened yet. I think about how the word "privilege" is used, and its more like "exemption from some inconveniences that aren't obvious". Your post about people not noticing that civil courts and agencies have these power over assumed rights is a decent example of that.

beambot 5y ago

> The terrorist watchlist [...] could be used to oppress, harass, or persecute people on the list and their families. So... what was it actually used for? Wasn't this the same list that results in extra scrutiny at airports & whatnot -- wouldn't that count as harassment?

staticautomatic 5y ago
Yeah it’s already used for that purpose…by the government.

__blockcipher__ 5y ago

> The patriot act deserves another look and possible edit. Boy, that was the understatement of the year. The patriot act doesn’t need an edit or another look. It needs to be completely abolished, yesterday.

arthurcolle 5y ago
It expired already.
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  Portions of it expired. Large parts did not.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Dismantling the State's oppression system goes further than having legal constructs expire. As long as there is parliaments, police, prisons and borders, the State will use those to oppress people, and no amount of using the oppressor's tools (legislation) can change that. "Just" dismantle the psychopathic institutions that govern our societies (a revolution) and make sure anyone who attempts to rebuild them is look down on with contempt.

lostlogin 5y ago

> “In the wrong hands…” It’s in the wrong hands already - the wrong hands made the list, and there are plenty of examples of what has happened to various misidentified people over the years.

EGreg 5y ago

The PATRIOT act was largely the result of US foreign policy affecting domestic policy and erosion of civil liberties: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=349 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=349 In an ideal world, we'd be constantly re-evaluating both foreign and domestic policies, but will we? Remember this signed by Obama: https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-in... And he was not able to even close down Gitmo

lancemurdock 5y ago

> The patriot act deserves another look and possible edit. once you give the gov power, it is never given back to the people.

pibechorro 5y ago

Edit?

pibechorro 5y ago

Edit? Cancel it entirely.

irrational 5y ago

I wonder how many of the participants in the Jan 6th insurrection are on it.

sschueller 5y ago

Senator Ted Kennedy was mistakenly matched with someone on the list back in the Bush era around 2004. How can you make that mistake?

stjohnswarts 5y ago

There is nothing Patriotic about the Patriot Act and it needs to be fully rescinded. That law is a travesty in every way. It was knee jerk reactionary law that shouldn't have been in place more than a couple years.