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I don't think there was an overt election fraud. Certainly there were some people who filled in mail in ballots for their dead spouses or things like that (as

I don't think there was an overt election fraud. Certainly there were some people who filled in mail in ballots for their dead spouses or things like that (as there is every single year), but it's minor, and not enough to have changed anything. But I completely and whole heartedly support any audits, lawsuits, investigations, whatever that anybody wants to do. I say audit and go through discovery as many times as people want. Suppressing this stuff just entrenches the people who think there is a conspiracy. Just let them look at it. I hope this case proceeds, and goes through a lengthy discovery process. And also, as a person who grew up as a hacker in the 90s and early 00s: i want no voting machines of any kind at all. Paper and pen only. If that's not possible, then the machines and their hardware should be 100% open source and Stallman should be in charge of it.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> But I completely and whole heartedly support any audits, lawsuits, investigations, whatever that anybody wants to do. Improper “audits” are not harmless, they risk destroying (both as evidence of what actually happened, and, in the case of operational equipment, as usable equipment) the items subjected to the audit. That's (both for ballots which have been compromised by the “audit” process and voting machines) been an issue with the Arizona audit. You can't believe in election integrity and blindly support “any audits, [...] whatever that anybody wants to do.” They are fundamentally mutually incompatible.
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  Consider what you're saying about auditing machines. That if a nefarious person has access to them, that it renders them untrustable. Also consider what you are saying about the ballots, that if a bad person gets access to them post facto, that that is bad. Neither of those things should be true in a well functioning election system. If the machines are vulnerable to a bad person touching them, then scrap them all. If the ballots can be tied to voters (as is the accusation in AZ), then the system is broken. MUCH work has been put into to preventing that from being possible. If it is possible, then the election is flawed.
  - eigen 5y ago
    >> But I completely and whole heartedly support any audits, lawsuits, investigations, whatever that anybody wants to do. I say audit and go through discovery as many times as people want. > Also consider what you are saying about the ballots, that if a bad person gets access to them post facto, that that is bad. seems that 1 bad actor can taint the ballots for future discovery. also, unlimited discovery just leads to a Gish Gallop. looking for traces of bamboo, kinetic artifacts, routers, etc.
    - thepasswordis 5y ago
      >looking for traces of bamboo, kinetic artifacts, routers, etc. How many conservative friends do you have? I don't think people understand the positive effect that the Arizona ballot has had on their faith in the election. It was "we're looking for bamboo fibers because there is a claim that these ballots were printed in China, where bamboo is used to make paper, and we didn't find any, so that seems unlikely." Those CrAzY things actually have a calming effect on the conspiracies, not a fueling one. There are some people who are susceptible to conspiracies who will never let this go (in the same way that their left leaning counterparts never let Russian collusion stories, or governor kidnapping plots go), but for your average, not-that-into-politics conservative voter, the audits are good.
      - MagicWishMonkey 5y ago
        Those people are now 100% convinced that the election was fraudulent... I don't see how that's a good thing?
        thepasswordis 5y ago
        Which group is 100% convinced the election was fraudulent?
        MagicWishMonkey 5y ago
        The vast majority of Republicans think the election was stolen - https://www.prri.org/spotlight/the-big-lie-most-republicans-believe-the-2020-election-was-stolen/ https://www.prri.org/spotlight/the-big-lie-most-republicans-... That number is likely even higher, now, after the crap that the GOP is pulling in Arizona. One of my close friends (a conservative, who doesn't even like Trump) is now convinced that the Democrats somehow stole the election. It's insane.
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codyswann 5y ago
If we had a "loser" pays system, I would be all for it. As it stands, people are free to file lawsuit after lawsuit and force other people and companies to pay out the nose to defend themselves.
redis_mlc 5y ago
> I don't think there was an overt election fraud. The USPS back-dated thousands of mail-in ballots, for one. Last-minute state ballot law changes were rolled back by judges after the election, for another. Who owns Dominion voting, used in 26 states, but banned in Texas because of unclear ownership? Looks like the CCP bought it just before the election. > Certainly there were some people who filled in mail in ballots for their dead spouses or things like that (as there is every single year) The FEC considers each count of those a federal crime. > but it's minor, and not enough to have changed anything. It actually was enough to change outcomes. 5% of the names in a recent county recount don't match voter rolls. You have no idea what you're talking about. There's reasons why half the country doesn't believe in the election results.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> But I completely and whole heartedly support any audits, lawsuits, investigations, whatever that anybody wants to do. Improper “audits” are not harmless, they risk destroying (both as evidence of what actually happened, and, in the case of operational equipment, as usable equipment) the items subjected to the audit. That's (both for ballots which have been compromised by the “audit” process and voting machines) been an issue with the Arizona audit. You can't believe in election integrity and blindly support “any audits, [...] whatever that anybody wants to do.” They are fundamentally mutually incompatible.

thepasswordis 5y ago
Consider what you're saying about auditing machines. That if a nefarious person has access to them, that it renders them untrustable. Also consider what you are saying about the ballots, that if a bad person gets access to them post facto, that that is bad. Neither of those things should be true in a well functioning election system. If the machines are vulnerable to a bad person touching them, then scrap them all. If the ballots can be tied to voters (as is the accusation in AZ), then the system is broken. MUCH work has been put into to preventing that from being possible. If it is possible, then the election is flawed.
- eigen 5y ago
  >> But I completely and whole heartedly support any audits, lawsuits, investigations, whatever that anybody wants to do. I say audit and go through discovery as many times as people want. > Also consider what you are saying about the ballots, that if a bad person gets access to them post facto, that that is bad. seems that 1 bad actor can taint the ballots for future discovery. also, unlimited discovery just leads to a Gish Gallop. looking for traces of bamboo, kinetic artifacts, routers, etc.
  - thepasswordis 5y ago
    >looking for traces of bamboo, kinetic artifacts, routers, etc. How many conservative friends do you have? I don't think people understand the positive effect that the Arizona ballot has had on their faith in the election. It was "we're looking for bamboo fibers because there is a claim that these ballots were printed in China, where bamboo is used to make paper, and we didn't find any, so that seems unlikely." Those CrAzY things actually have a calming effect on the conspiracies, not a fueling one. There are some people who are susceptible to conspiracies who will never let this go (in the same way that their left leaning counterparts never let Russian collusion stories, or governor kidnapping plots go), but for your average, not-that-into-politics conservative voter, the audits are good.
    - MagicWishMonkey 5y ago
      Those people are now 100% convinced that the election was fraudulent... I don't see how that's a good thing?
      - thepasswordis 5y ago
        Which group is 100% convinced the election was fraudulent?
        MagicWishMonkey 5y ago
        The vast majority of Republicans think the election was stolen - https://www.prri.org/spotlight/the-big-lie-most-republicans-believe-the-2020-election-was-stolen/ https://www.prri.org/spotlight/the-big-lie-most-republicans-... That number is likely even higher, now, after the crap that the GOP is pulling in Arizona. One of my close friends (a conservative, who doesn't even like Trump) is now convinced that the Democrats somehow stole the election. It's insane.

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codyswann 5y ago

If we had a "loser" pays system, I would be all for it. As it stands, people are free to file lawsuit after lawsuit and force other people and companies to pay out the nose to defend themselves.

redis_mlc 5y ago

> I don't think there was an overt election fraud. The USPS back-dated thousands of mail-in ballots, for one. Last-minute state ballot law changes were rolled back by judges after the election, for another. Who owns Dominion voting, used in 26 states, but banned in Texas because of unclear ownership? Looks like the CCP bought it just before the election. > Certainly there were some people who filled in mail in ballots for their dead spouses or things like that (as there is every single year) The FEC considers each count of those a federal crime. > but it's minor, and not enough to have changed anything. It actually was enough to change outcomes. 5% of the names in a recent county recount don't match voter rolls. You have no idea what you're talking about. There's reasons why half the country doesn't believe in the election results.