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> iCloud is not end-to-end encrypted Yet. Have you considered that this might be a necessary precursor to making iCloud e2e?

by zepto 5y ago

IncRnd 5y ago
Scanning people's on-phone photos clearly has nothing to do with being a precursor to e2e encryption. The photos get transferred either way, so one has nothing to do with the other.
- hkt 5y ago
  Except for giving the authorities a way in to replace the one they're losing.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    That's not what was being argued, but you made an excellent point.
    - zepto 5y ago
      What was being argued was exactly this.
      - IncRnd 5y ago
        I know what I was arguing, and it was specifically mentioned, so no it was not what was being argued.
        zepto 5y ago
        > Scanning people's on-phone photos clearly has nothing to do with being a precursor to e2e encryption This is what you were arguing. It is false.
        IncRnd 5y ago
        Followed by this, "The photos get transferred either way, so one has nothing to do with the other." It was clearly a technical statement not a privacy statement, so only superficial reading might lead one to believe it meant something that it did not. That is why I replied that the person who replied to my comment, where I said I had argued something different, but that what he wrote was an excellent point. So, what on earth are you so invested in that you feel the need to argue minutiae that don't apply?
        zepto 5y ago
        > "The photos get transferred either way, so one has nothing to do with the other." That doesn’t change anything. It may be a pre-requisite from the perspective of their business. You replied to me and I didn’t constrain my point to just technicalities. > So, what on earth are you so invested in that you feel the need to argue minutiae that don't apply? It does apply. I’m simply pointing out that what you said is not correct.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
dont__panic 5y ago
If the goal was to make iCloud e2e, why not release both features at the same time so people can see that they're codependent (in Apple's eyes)? Without any kind of announcment or promise of e2e iCloud, we're just speculating for possible reasons why this might be OK. Might as well guess that this is going to allow Apple to give us free iCloud storage, too, while we're coming up with wishlist features.
- zepto 5y ago
  > we're just speculating for possible reasons why this might be OK. Sure. All the statements about why it’s not ok are also just speculation. > why not release both features at the same time That’s not how Apple typically works. They release a feature, try to make sure it works as expected and only then release the features that depend on it.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  Then doesn't that seem hypocritical to you to defend dropping Apple right now for the imagined future possibility that all local photos could be scanned (instead of just the uploads)?
AbjectFailure 5y ago
There’s little point in E2E encryption if snooping is moved outside of either end. This measure is only necessary for implementing E2E in iCloud insofar as it allows the feds to do the very thing I want E2E to prevent them from doing in the first place. It’s as if USPS invented a new type of envelope that is physically impossible to open for anyone whose name is not written on the outside of it. Just one caveat: before they’ll give you any of these envelopes, you must allow them to read the letters being put inside. If your concern is someone intercepting your mail before it gets to its intended recipient, this is great news. If your threat model involves federal agencies reading your mail, you’re no better off than you would be without these fancy new envelopes.
- zepto 5y ago
  > if snooping is moved outside of either end Yes, but this isn’t snooping.
  - AbjectFailure 5y ago
    They’re scanning users’ data on users’ devices. What do we call that if not snooping?
nottorp 5y ago
Necessary ... for the US government? Definitely not for me.

> iCloud is not end-to-end encrypted Yet. Have you considered that this might be a necessary precursor to making iCloud e2e?

by zepto 5y ago

> iCloud is not end-to-end encrypted Yet. Have you considered that this might be a necessary precursor to making iCloud e2e?

IncRnd 5y ago

Scanning people's on-phone photos clearly has nothing to do with being a precursor to e2e encryption. The photos get transferred either way, so one has nothing to do with the other.

hkt 5y ago
Except for giving the authorities a way in to replace the one they're losing.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  That's not what was being argued, but you made an excellent point.
  - zepto 5y ago
    What was being argued was exactly this.
    - IncRnd 5y ago
      I know what I was arguing, and it was specifically mentioned, so no it was not what was being argued.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > Scanning people's on-phone photos clearly has nothing to do with being a precursor to e2e encryption This is what you were arguing. It is false.
        IncRnd 5y ago
        Followed by this, "The photos get transferred either way, so one has nothing to do with the other." It was clearly a technical statement not a privacy statement, so only superficial reading might lead one to believe it meant something that it did not. That is why I replied that the person who replied to my comment, where I said I had argued something different, but that what he wrote was an excellent point. So, what on earth are you so invested in that you feel the need to argue minutiae that don't apply?
        zepto 5y ago
        > "The photos get transferred either way, so one has nothing to do with the other." That doesn’t change anything. It may be a pre-requisite from the perspective of their business. You replied to me and I didn’t constrain my point to just technicalities. > So, what on earth are you so invested in that you feel the need to argue minutiae that don't apply? It does apply. I’m simply pointing out that what you said is not correct.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

dont__panic 5y ago

If the goal was to make iCloud e2e, why not release both features at the same time so people can see that they're codependent (in Apple's eyes)? Without any kind of announcment or promise of e2e iCloud, we're just speculating for possible reasons why this might be OK. Might as well guess that this is going to allow Apple to give us free iCloud storage, too, while we're coming up with wishlist features.

zepto 5y ago
> we're just speculating for possible reasons why this might be OK. Sure. All the statements about why it’s not ok are also just speculation. > why not release both features at the same time That’s not how Apple typically works. They release a feature, try to make sure it works as expected and only then release the features that depend on it.
benhurmarcel 5y ago
Then doesn't that seem hypocritical to you to defend dropping Apple right now for the imagined future possibility that all local photos could be scanned (instead of just the uploads)?

AbjectFailure 5y ago

There’s little point in E2E encryption if snooping is moved outside of either end. This measure is only necessary for implementing E2E in iCloud insofar as it allows the feds to do the very thing I want E2E to prevent them from doing in the first place. It’s as if USPS invented a new type of envelope that is physically impossible to open for anyone whose name is not written on the outside of it. Just one caveat: before they’ll give you any of these envelopes, you must allow them to read the letters being put inside. If your concern is someone intercepting your mail before it gets to its intended recipient, this is great news. If your threat model involves federal agencies reading your mail, you’re no better off than you would be without these fancy new envelopes.

zepto 5y ago
> if snooping is moved outside of either end Yes, but this isn’t snooping.
- AbjectFailure 5y ago
  They’re scanning users’ data on users’ devices. What do we call that if not snooping?

nottorp 5y ago

Necessary ... for the US government? Definitely not for me.