11 ms·

I think that, between the earlier articles about this effect happening in the mainland US[1] and now Germany, it's safe to say that at this point the hypothesis

by fouric 5y ago

I think that, between the earlier articles about this effect happening in the mainland US[1] and now Germany, it's safe to say that at this point the hypothesis that this is some benign phenomenon (e.g. cricket noises[2]) has been sufficiently debunked. Given that, the current interesting question is whether this effect is unintentional (e.g. two newly-deployed RF technologies that interact with each other in a harmful way) or whether it's flat-out a weapon. Given that almost exclusively US officials have acquired these symptoms, I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/mysterious-health-incidents-rise-to-130-us-officials-confirm/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/mysterious-health-in... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837561

shadowgovt 5y ago
> I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but when it does the simplest correlation is often pointing at the correct causation. Could be a weapon... Or, could be two technologies the US regularly deploys to its own bases interfering with each other (perhaps some standard-issue State Department tech and some classified self-snooping tech the NSA or CIA deploys to monitor its own agents who are considered sensitive national assets?). That would explain why the incidents happen only on US bases and not, say, to any other adversaries of the Russian or Chinese state.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
It could possibly be a modern "Folie à deux" or shared delusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux Essentially, for whatever reason, people working in the Cuban embassy started feeling ill with mysterious symptoms and that caught on. It could have originally been something like sick building syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome But then people latched on to the idea that it was caused by some kind of sonic device or hitherto unknown weapon targeting embassies. Someone starts to feel sick? Oh my god, it could be Havana Syndrome! Now that you mention it Becky, I'm starting to feel queasy too... A parallel is how the notion that MSG causes headaches caught on. One doctor suggested that there is a link between eating Chinese restaurant food flavored with MSG and headaches. But "Thirty years after the Chinese restaurant syndrome was debunked, stigmas about MSG persist." People who believe this will legitimately start to feel sick if you feed them MSG, even if you didn't actually put any MSG in and lie that you did. Now I'm not saying this is what is actually happening because we just don't know yet. Edit: And, most of the symptoms, headache, nausea, anxiety, insomnia, are all really common side effects and can be caused by just about anything.
- jamil7 5y ago
  I don't understand why this comment is downvoted, this is far more believable than a magic space ray that... makes people a little nauseous?
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    Perhaps my wording was poor. I went back in and cleaned it up a bit and added a little more context about my MSG parallel.
  - baby 5y ago
    Don’t disagree, but “magic spaceray”? Really? We’re in 2021
- meowface 5y ago
  This was the leading hypothesis for years, including for me, but even about a year ago I was considering betting a lot of money on a prediction market that it's indeed an intentional deployment of a weapon. I've found myself arguing the case with people on HN on several occasions, in part because I'm extremely conspiracy theory-skeptical in general and felt like people were wrong to dismiss this as any other silly conspiracy theory circulating around. One factor worth noting is the consistency of the self-reports of the phenomenon and the symptoms, subsequent brain scans showing concussive injury, and medical diagnoses of brain damage. At this point I'd definitely bet if I could find a way to. I'd say I'm about 85% confident it's a weapon. And unless there's an elaborate false flag or psyop going on, then if the claims in this article are true, it seems Russian intelligence officers are likely the ones responsible for at least some of the attacks: https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-microwave-attacks https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-micro... (Oct 2020).
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Claiming it's an intentionally-designed, secretly-deployed weapon seems like more of a "conspiracy theory" than that it's a result of delegating facilities construction and maintenance to private corporations with security clearances. How welcome are "Russian intelligence officers" in Guangzhou?
luckylion 5y ago
> Given that almost exclusively US officials have acquired these symptoms, I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. Only US officials work in US military/intelligence (which all embassies are to an extent) installations. If it's something they deployed, e.g. some new surveillance or security tech, it makes sense that it would affect people working there. And the US intelligence community would probably rather have a few people get inconvenienced than not use their toys.
- ganoushoreilly 5y ago
  Not entirely true, many embassies and facilities hire local nationals to work and operate within the grounds.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    Yes so the interesting question is: Do these nationals also get sick or not?
    - ashildr 5y ago
      This would be an excellent data point.
- twic 5y ago
  Note that many of the 'attacks' happened when staff were at home, not in the embassies. So this would have to be some sort of spytech deployed in diplomats' homes.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    How do you know that? If they all work at the same embassy, it seems much more likely that an attack was made on the embassy that manifested into symptoms later on, at home.
    - twic 5y ago
rory_isAdonk 5y ago
any chance the NSA/CIA is simply using a surveillance tool which causes this to those near by? I mean I would guess this is self inflicted.
- bradford 5y ago
  Were that the case, I think the NSA/CIA would have been able to figure it out. [I'm a bit baffled by the comments that are simply assuming incompetence from these organizations.]
  - rory_isAdonk 5y ago
    Perhaps they are aware and just decide to do it anyway, plenty of examples in US history. Maybe read some history and be less baffled?
    - voakbasda 5y ago
      Yup. False flags have a long and well-documented history.
  - brynx97 5y ago
    I want to echo your concerns. This thread is full of gaslighting and a lazy and strange assumption that organizations are maliciously accepting friendly fire due to their own tech or tools. Same with "government workers wanting an early medical retirement to get their pensions".
  - publicola1990 5y ago
    These are Government staffed organisations, and incompetence is always a possibility.
twic 5y ago
The mostly likely explanation now is mass psychogenic illness. The Russians have clearly obtained the technology from ravelry.com.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  How exactly do you justify this? If mass psychogenic illnesses were so easy to instantiate, they would be extremely common. That's just not how the world works.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Psychogenic illness, and The Placebo Effect, should be mandatory in every high school biology class.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    We still want people to go to the doctor (or at least an NP) when they think they might be sick. Making this a big point of emphasis in a non-selective educational setting would probably harm overall public health. It could be discussed in psychology classes, because everyone attending is assumed to be capable of discussing that topic.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
I think a large part of his has been people misattributing their real illness to a harmless sound which was actually there, however. Which has made the whole thing a big mess with confusion around "sonic" weaponry.
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
From the 1950s to the 1990s or so, it was well-known that mind control was a real thing. If someone got hold of you, they could literally go into your brain and program you to think whatever they wanted, and unless a "deprogrammer" turned you back you'd be in their thrall forever. An American of the 1980s would have no trouble listing off examples of people who've been successfully mind controlled in this way: Patty Hearst, the Manson family, the Peoples Temple... I think this has to be seen in that light. There's something happening, and we should investigate it, but that's no guarantee it's at all like what we're thinking.
ashildr 5y ago
They may perceive themselves differently, but I don’t think US diplomats are very useful targets for a mysterious weapon.
dotcommand 5y ago
At this point, it's either mass hysteria, a weapon of some kind or something common within this group. Are these officials forced to carry some kind of equipment that can cause this? Were they required to get some shots/drugs, implants or training that causes mental/auditory/etc issues? It's also remotely possible it's just another ploy to foster more fear in population. It is odd that it apparently affects a particular specialized group of people and that they would make this public without figuring things out first.
morpheuskafka 5y ago
It seems the only way it could not be a weapon is if the unintentional side effect was coming from some other kind of device (ex. surveillance) that is also specifically targeted at U.S. diplomats. Surveillance of diplomatic missions does tend to use cutting edge technologies, so that's not entirely improbable, but if harming people wasn't the goal then it seems they would be concerned about it drawing attention to their technique.

by fouric 5y ago

shadowgovt 5y ago

> I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but when it does the simplest correlation is often pointing at the correct causation. Could be a weapon... Or, could be two technologies the US regularly deploys to its own bases interfering with each other (perhaps some standard-issue State Department tech and some classified self-snooping tech the NSA or CIA deploys to monitor its own agents who are considered sensitive national assets?). That would explain why the incidents happen only on US bases and not, say, to any other adversaries of the Russian or Chinese state.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

It could possibly be a modern "Folie à deux" or shared delusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux Essentially, for whatever reason, people working in the Cuban embassy started feeling ill with mysterious symptoms and that caught on. It could have originally been something like sick building syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome But then people latched on to the idea that it was caused by some kind of sonic device or hitherto unknown weapon targeting embassies. Someone starts to feel sick? Oh my god, it could be Havana Syndrome! Now that you mention it Becky, I'm starting to feel queasy too... A parallel is how the notion that MSG causes headaches caught on. One doctor suggested that there is a link between eating Chinese restaurant food flavored with MSG and headaches. But "Thirty years after the Chinese restaurant syndrome was debunked, stigmas about MSG persist." People who believe this will legitimately start to feel sick if you feed them MSG, even if you didn't actually put any MSG in and lie that you did. Now I'm not saying this is what is actually happening because we just don't know yet. Edit: And, most of the symptoms, headache, nausea, anxiety, insomnia, are all really common side effects and can be caused by just about anything.

jamil7 5y ago
I don't understand why this comment is downvoted, this is far more believable than a magic space ray that... makes people a little nauseous?
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  Perhaps my wording was poor. I went back in and cleaned it up a bit and added a little more context about my MSG parallel.
- baby 5y ago
  Don’t disagree, but “magic spaceray”? Really? We’re in 2021
meowface 5y ago
This was the leading hypothesis for years, including for me, but even about a year ago I was considering betting a lot of money on a prediction market that it's indeed an intentional deployment of a weapon. I've found myself arguing the case with people on HN on several occasions, in part because I'm extremely conspiracy theory-skeptical in general and felt like people were wrong to dismiss this as any other silly conspiracy theory circulating around. One factor worth noting is the consistency of the self-reports of the phenomenon and the symptoms, subsequent brain scans showing concussive injury, and medical diagnoses of brain damage. At this point I'd definitely bet if I could find a way to. I'd say I'm about 85% confident it's a weapon. And unless there's an elaborate false flag or psyop going on, then if the claims in this article are true, it seems Russian intelligence officers are likely the ones responsible for at least some of the attacks: https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-microwave-attacks https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-micro... (Oct 2020).
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Claiming it's an intentionally-designed, secretly-deployed weapon seems like more of a "conspiracy theory" than that it's a result of delegating facilities construction and maintenance to private corporations with security clearances. How welcome are "Russian intelligence officers" in Guangzhou?

luckylion 5y ago

> Given that almost exclusively US officials have acquired these symptoms, I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. Only US officials work in US military/intelligence (which all embassies are to an extent) installations. If it's something they deployed, e.g. some new surveillance or security tech, it makes sense that it would affect people working there. And the US intelligence community would probably rather have a few people get inconvenienced than not use their toys.

ganoushoreilly 5y ago
Not entirely true, many embassies and facilities hire local nationals to work and operate within the grounds.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  Yes so the interesting question is: Do these nationals also get sick or not?
  - ashildr 5y ago
    This would be an excellent data point.
twic 5y ago
Note that many of the 'attacks' happened when staff were at home, not in the embassies. So this would have to be some sort of spytech deployed in diplomats' homes.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  How do you know that? If they all work at the same embassy, it seems much more likely that an attack was made on the embassy that manifested into symptoms later on, at home.
  - twic 5y ago

rory_isAdonk 5y ago

any chance the NSA/CIA is simply using a surveillance tool which causes this to those near by? I mean I would guess this is self inflicted.

bradford 5y ago
Were that the case, I think the NSA/CIA would have been able to figure it out. [I'm a bit baffled by the comments that are simply assuming incompetence from these organizations.]
- rory_isAdonk 5y ago
  Perhaps they are aware and just decide to do it anyway, plenty of examples in US history. Maybe read some history and be less baffled?
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    Yup. False flags have a long and well-documented history.
- brynx97 5y ago
  I want to echo your concerns. This thread is full of gaslighting and a lazy and strange assumption that organizations are maliciously accepting friendly fire due to their own tech or tools. Same with "government workers wanting an early medical retirement to get their pensions".
- publicola1990 5y ago
  These are Government staffed organisations, and incompetence is always a possibility.

twic 5y ago

The mostly likely explanation now is mass psychogenic illness. The Russians have clearly obtained the technology from ravelry.com.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
How exactly do you justify this? If mass psychogenic illnesses were so easy to instantiate, they would be extremely common. That's just not how the world works.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
Psychogenic illness, and The Placebo Effect, should be mandatory in every high school biology class.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  We still want people to go to the doctor (or at least an NP) when they think they might be sick. Making this a big point of emphasis in a non-selective educational setting would probably harm overall public health. It could be discussed in psychology classes, because everyone attending is assumed to be capable of discussing that topic.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

I think a large part of his has been people misattributing their real illness to a harmless sound which was actually there, however. Which has made the whole thing a big mess with confusion around "sonic" weaponry.

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago

From the 1950s to the 1990s or so, it was well-known that mind control was a real thing. If someone got hold of you, they could literally go into your brain and program you to think whatever they wanted, and unless a "deprogrammer" turned you back you'd be in their thrall forever. An American of the 1980s would have no trouble listing off examples of people who've been successfully mind controlled in this way: Patty Hearst, the Manson family, the Peoples Temple... I think this has to be seen in that light. There's something happening, and we should investigate it, but that's no guarantee it's at all like what we're thinking.

ashildr 5y ago

They may perceive themselves differently, but I don’t think US diplomats are very useful targets for a mysterious weapon.

dotcommand 5y ago

At this point, it's either mass hysteria, a weapon of some kind or something common within this group. Are these officials forced to carry some kind of equipment that can cause this? Were they required to get some shots/drugs, implants or training that causes mental/auditory/etc issues? It's also remotely possible it's just another ploy to foster more fear in population. It is odd that it apparently affects a particular specialized group of people and that they would make this public without figuring things out first.

morpheuskafka 5y ago

It seems the only way it could not be a weapon is if the unintentional side effect was coming from some other kind of device (ex. surveillance) that is also specifically targeted at U.S. diplomats. Surveillance of diplomatic missions does tend to use cutting edge technologies, so that's not entirely improbable, but if harming people wasn't the goal then it seems they would be concerned about it drawing attention to their technique.