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I agree and to add to your third point... weren't we eating plants long before we started eating meat as primates? I feel like the evolutionary argument shows t

I agree and to add to your third point... weren't we eating plants long before we started eating meat as primates? I feel like the evolutionary argument shows that our bodies are more aligned with a plant based diet.

GravitasFailure 5y ago
Whatever human ancestor was a pure herbivore was some millions of years ago, and in the process we started to rely on meat for nutrients such as B12 and creatine. We also absorb heme iron, which is exclusively found in meat, far better than plant sources of iron, while our stomach acidity is closer to vultures and owls than other primates. I very much doubt humans could survive without at least some meat without agriculture.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  Historically humans lived with very little to no meat for most of human history. Most humans also were malnourished/underfed as are most wild animals most of the time. Many humans also lived vegan all their lives by choicr (see e.g. Indian religipns). So I'm not sure your argument holds that modern agriculture is required for a healthy ot ay leats sustainable vegan diet. That said, you are also right that obviously we don't have the capacity to live with the diet of our predecessor species. Famously early mammals (or possibly predecessors) were able to generate their own vitamins C, but this capacity is lost in modern humans and many other species as vitamin C was usually very well available. Just like we lost the fur on most of our bodies, evolution tends to drop things no longer essential for survival. So we are dependent on our environment not just for general input but also for certain specific nutrients that we simply cannot produce on our own. But I don't think we can derive from this an argument for eating meat - as you flag, we do have modern agriculture, let's use it for the best, not junk food and often vile and inhumane treatment of animals.
  - GravitasFailure 5y ago
    Our savannah ancestors very likely consumed less meat than modern humans, like you said, but my point was that certain nutrients aren't too humans available at all without animal inputs. Agriculture (notice I didn't say modern agriculture) enabled lacto-vegetarianism by adding milk to get those nutrients, but that's 12,000 years out of...what? 50,000 years of homo sapiens sapiens existence? Those inputs aren't trivial, either, since a lack of B12 will cause irreversible central nervous system damage in adults after about 5 years and straight up kills children. Indian diets are also a great example here since the Kshatriya caste were the warriors and rulers and also included meat in their diet, partially for the caloric density to make transporting rations easier but also for the health benefits to get fighting fit. Most indians included at least some eggs and meat while none of them went without dairy, except in fairly narrow cases of ascetics for limited periods of time. The Brahmins, who had the strictest rules against meat, were not laborers, which should tell you something important about human physiology and heavy physical activity. Of course in the modern era, with abundant food, refrigeration, dietary supplements, and so on...sure, a legitimately vegan diet is absolutely possible. Historically? Not so much.
xkcd-sucks 5y ago
Evolutionary history also suggeats that modern human brain development was supported by scavenging kills, i.e. smashing bones with rocks to eat the marrow

GravitasFailure 5y ago

Whatever human ancestor was a pure herbivore was some millions of years ago, and in the process we started to rely on meat for nutrients such as B12 and creatine. We also absorb heme iron, which is exclusively found in meat, far better than plant sources of iron, while our stomach acidity is closer to vultures and owls than other primates. I very much doubt humans could survive without at least some meat without agriculture.

estaseuropano 5y ago
Historically humans lived with very little to no meat for most of human history. Most humans also were malnourished/underfed as are most wild animals most of the time. Many humans also lived vegan all their lives by choicr (see e.g. Indian religipns). So I'm not sure your argument holds that modern agriculture is required for a healthy ot ay leats sustainable vegan diet. That said, you are also right that obviously we don't have the capacity to live with the diet of our predecessor species. Famously early mammals (or possibly predecessors) were able to generate their own vitamins C, but this capacity is lost in modern humans and many other species as vitamin C was usually very well available. Just like we lost the fur on most of our bodies, evolution tends to drop things no longer essential for survival. So we are dependent on our environment not just for general input but also for certain specific nutrients that we simply cannot produce on our own. But I don't think we can derive from this an argument for eating meat - as you flag, we do have modern agriculture, let's use it for the best, not junk food and often vile and inhumane treatment of animals.
- GravitasFailure 5y ago
  Our savannah ancestors very likely consumed less meat than modern humans, like you said, but my point was that certain nutrients aren't too humans available at all without animal inputs. Agriculture (notice I didn't say modern agriculture) enabled lacto-vegetarianism by adding milk to get those nutrients, but that's 12,000 years out of...what? 50,000 years of homo sapiens sapiens existence? Those inputs aren't trivial, either, since a lack of B12 will cause irreversible central nervous system damage in adults after about 5 years and straight up kills children. Indian diets are also a great example here since the Kshatriya caste were the warriors and rulers and also included meat in their diet, partially for the caloric density to make transporting rations easier but also for the health benefits to get fighting fit. Most indians included at least some eggs and meat while none of them went without dairy, except in fairly narrow cases of ascetics for limited periods of time. The Brahmins, who had the strictest rules against meat, were not laborers, which should tell you something important about human physiology and heavy physical activity. Of course in the modern era, with abundant food, refrigeration, dietary supplements, and so on...sure, a legitimately vegan diet is absolutely possible. Historically? Not so much.

xkcd-sucks 5y ago

Evolutionary history also suggeats that modern human brain development was supported by scavenging kills, i.e. smashing bones with rocks to eat the marrow