6 ms·

Long time vegan and successful knowledge worker here. I think this study does not closely reflect a modern western vegan diet. 1. There was no supplementation

Long time vegan and successful knowledge worker here. I think this study does not closely reflect a modern western vegan diet. 1. There was no supplementation. A modern vegan should be supplementing or eating foods fortified in B6, B12, D, and DHA/DPA. This type of advice is really common among vegan resources and many vegan foods will be fortified with these types of vitamins (DHA/DPA is a bit more rare). There are non-animal sources for all of these vitamins. There is some debate on if DHA/DPA is as effective as consuming Omega 3 directly. Omega 3s can be found in adequate amounts inside many types of seeds, and seeds will have other valuable nutrients as well. 2. The study put people on a diet of soup with meat, soup with milk, or soup with oil. Oil clearly has the least amount of protein and nutrients compared to the other three. In real life humans have better diet choices. 3. The BBC article has a lot of evolutionary arguments for eating meat. In my mind historical dietary practices is as irrelevant as historical medical practices. Modern humans live under such different circumstances. We have a massive food surplus, our life span is 2x, our lifestyle is highly sedentary, we have access to a much greater variety of food and we have a much better understanding of nutrition and human biology. “This is the way things have always been done” is not a good enough reason for me to base my health choices on, and diet is one of the biggest health choices you can make. Plant based foods are healthy for the human body, significantly better for the environment, and more compassionate to all life.

dleacock 5y ago
I agree and to add to your third point... weren't we eating plants long before we started eating meat as primates? I feel like the evolutionary argument shows that our bodies are more aligned with a plant based diet.
- GravitasFailure 5y ago
  Whatever human ancestor was a pure herbivore was some millions of years ago, and in the process we started to rely on meat for nutrients such as B12 and creatine. We also absorb heme iron, which is exclusively found in meat, far better than plant sources of iron, while our stomach acidity is closer to vultures and owls than other primates. I very much doubt humans could survive without at least some meat without agriculture.
  - estaseuropano 5y ago
    Historically humans lived with very little to no meat for most of human history. Most humans also were malnourished/underfed as are most wild animals most of the time. Many humans also lived vegan all their lives by choicr (see e.g. Indian religipns). So I'm not sure your argument holds that modern agriculture is required for a healthy ot ay leats sustainable vegan diet. That said, you are also right that obviously we don't have the capacity to live with the diet of our predecessor species. Famously early mammals (or possibly predecessors) were able to generate their own vitamins C, but this capacity is lost in modern humans and many other species as vitamin C was usually very well available. Just like we lost the fur on most of our bodies, evolution tends to drop things no longer essential for survival. So we are dependent on our environment not just for general input but also for certain specific nutrients that we simply cannot produce on our own. But I don't think we can derive from this an argument for eating meat - as you flag, we do have modern agriculture, let's use it for the best, not junk food and often vile and inhumane treatment of animals.
    - GravitasFailure 5y ago
      Our savannah ancestors very likely consumed less meat than modern humans, like you said, but my point was that certain nutrients aren't too humans available at all without animal inputs. Agriculture (notice I didn't say modern agriculture) enabled lacto-vegetarianism by adding milk to get those nutrients, but that's 12,000 years out of...what? 50,000 years of homo sapiens sapiens existence? Those inputs aren't trivial, either, since a lack of B12 will cause irreversible central nervous system damage in adults after about 5 years and straight up kills children. Indian diets are also a great example here since the Kshatriya caste were the warriors and rulers and also included meat in their diet, partially for the caloric density to make transporting rations easier but also for the health benefits to get fighting fit. Most indians included at least some eggs and meat while none of them went without dairy, except in fairly narrow cases of ascetics for limited periods of time. The Brahmins, who had the strictest rules against meat, were not laborers, which should tell you something important about human physiology and heavy physical activity. Of course in the modern era, with abundant food, refrigeration, dietary supplements, and so on...sure, a legitimately vegan diet is absolutely possible. Historically? Not so much.
- xkcd-sucks 5y ago
  Evolutionary history also suggeats that modern human brain development was supported by scavenging kills, i.e. smashing bones with rocks to eat the marrow
N1H1L 5y ago
Whenever I hear the term “This is the way things have always been done” I always retort back, "If we had continued doing things as they have always been done, we would still be hunter-gatherers on the African savannah, and civilization wouldn't exist."
ericmcer 5y ago
Do products like Beyond meat and the impossible burger attempt to address these issues? I know the FDA adding nutrients to cereal/milk/salt/etc had huge impacts on public health. It is weird those companies don’t focus more on nutritionally replacing meat vs flavor & protein. For my own anecdote my health has skyrocketed since I started eating more meat, but not things like sausages, hamburgers and chicken breasts. Instead I take an entire chicken and break it down and eat everything: skin, sinew, and make broth from the carcass. I swear I recover from exercise like I’m 20 again.
- after_care 5y ago
  Beyond Meat (and other meat alternatives) handles a lot from the amino acid and iron side of things. Soymilk/Dairy Alternative ls will often be fortified with B and D vitamins.
cheese_goddess 5y ago
There are many more than that one study cited in the article. It's informative to read a few of them, for example: > Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 > Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inline https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl... > Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/45_10_705/_article https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/... > Is vegetarianism healthy for children? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1437024 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1... > Vitamin B12 deficiency is endemic in Indian population: A perspective from North India https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;volume=23;issue=2;spage=211;epage=214;aulast=Singla https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;vol... And more.
- spicymaki 5y ago
  Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well. B12 is a solved problem for vegans via supplementation, and we even supplement farm animals to get enough into omnivore diets. Vitamin D is also a solved problem, and omnivores are deficient as well. There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need.
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    > Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well. Go ahead, but those are irrelevant if they're about eating meat. The studies I linked to suggest that not eating meat can cause B12 deficiencies. They say more things that might be interesting but you'll have to read them for that. And of course it's not a "solved problem" if people actually suffer from it. That's just wilful ignorance. > There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need. And that's a classic No True Scottsman, I believe. I use an alt for conversations like this because I genuinely feel soiled afterwards, the level of debate is so low, almost without fail. Dishonesty and politicking all the way down.
pcthrowaway 5y ago
Also a long time vegan and not completely malnourished. Did you read the whole article? It discusses several studies where vegetarians and vegans are given supplements, and generally ends on the note that you absolutely need to supplement to live optimally on a vegan diet. I mostly agree, although I think the title and tone taken at the beginning are uncharitable.

dleacock 5y ago

I agree and to add to your third point... weren't we eating plants long before we started eating meat as primates? I feel like the evolutionary argument shows that our bodies are more aligned with a plant based diet.

GravitasFailure 5y ago
Whatever human ancestor was a pure herbivore was some millions of years ago, and in the process we started to rely on meat for nutrients such as B12 and creatine. We also absorb heme iron, which is exclusively found in meat, far better than plant sources of iron, while our stomach acidity is closer to vultures and owls than other primates. I very much doubt humans could survive without at least some meat without agriculture.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  Historically humans lived with very little to no meat for most of human history. Most humans also were malnourished/underfed as are most wild animals most of the time. Many humans also lived vegan all their lives by choicr (see e.g. Indian religipns). So I'm not sure your argument holds that modern agriculture is required for a healthy ot ay leats sustainable vegan diet. That said, you are also right that obviously we don't have the capacity to live with the diet of our predecessor species. Famously early mammals (or possibly predecessors) were able to generate their own vitamins C, but this capacity is lost in modern humans and many other species as vitamin C was usually very well available. Just like we lost the fur on most of our bodies, evolution tends to drop things no longer essential for survival. So we are dependent on our environment not just for general input but also for certain specific nutrients that we simply cannot produce on our own. But I don't think we can derive from this an argument for eating meat - as you flag, we do have modern agriculture, let's use it for the best, not junk food and often vile and inhumane treatment of animals.
  - GravitasFailure 5y ago
    Our savannah ancestors very likely consumed less meat than modern humans, like you said, but my point was that certain nutrients aren't too humans available at all without animal inputs. Agriculture (notice I didn't say modern agriculture) enabled lacto-vegetarianism by adding milk to get those nutrients, but that's 12,000 years out of...what? 50,000 years of homo sapiens sapiens existence? Those inputs aren't trivial, either, since a lack of B12 will cause irreversible central nervous system damage in adults after about 5 years and straight up kills children. Indian diets are also a great example here since the Kshatriya caste were the warriors and rulers and also included meat in their diet, partially for the caloric density to make transporting rations easier but also for the health benefits to get fighting fit. Most indians included at least some eggs and meat while none of them went without dairy, except in fairly narrow cases of ascetics for limited periods of time. The Brahmins, who had the strictest rules against meat, were not laborers, which should tell you something important about human physiology and heavy physical activity. Of course in the modern era, with abundant food, refrigeration, dietary supplements, and so on...sure, a legitimately vegan diet is absolutely possible. Historically? Not so much.
xkcd-sucks 5y ago
Evolutionary history also suggeats that modern human brain development was supported by scavenging kills, i.e. smashing bones with rocks to eat the marrow

N1H1L 5y ago

Whenever I hear the term “This is the way things have always been done” I always retort back, "If we had continued doing things as they have always been done, we would still be hunter-gatherers on the African savannah, and civilization wouldn't exist."

ericmcer 5y ago

Do products like Beyond meat and the impossible burger attempt to address these issues? I know the FDA adding nutrients to cereal/milk/salt/etc had huge impacts on public health. It is weird those companies don’t focus more on nutritionally replacing meat vs flavor & protein. For my own anecdote my health has skyrocketed since I started eating more meat, but not things like sausages, hamburgers and chicken breasts. Instead I take an entire chicken and break it down and eat everything: skin, sinew, and make broth from the carcass. I swear I recover from exercise like I’m 20 again.

after_care 5y ago
Beyond Meat (and other meat alternatives) handles a lot from the amino acid and iron side of things. Soymilk/Dairy Alternative ls will often be fortified with B and D vitamins.

cheese_goddess 5y ago

There are many more than that one study cited in the article. It's informative to read a few of them, for example: > Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 > Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inline https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl... > Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/45_10_705/_article https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/... > Is vegetarianism healthy for children? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1437024 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1... > Vitamin B12 deficiency is endemic in Indian population: A perspective from North India https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;volume=23;issue=2;spage=211;epage=214;aulast=Singla https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;vol... And more.

spicymaki 5y ago
Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well. B12 is a solved problem for vegans via supplementation, and we even supplement farm animals to get enough into omnivore diets. Vitamin D is also a solved problem, and omnivores are deficient as well. There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > Sure, I can also cherry-pick articles on how meat consumption is unhealthy as well. Go ahead, but those are irrelevant if they're about eating meat. The studies I linked to suggest that not eating meat can cause B12 deficiencies. They say more things that might be interesting but you'll have to read them for that. And of course it's not a "solved problem" if people actually suffer from it. That's just wilful ignorance. > There are some vegans that refuse to supplement due to being on fad diets, but that does not mean vegans cannot get the nutrients they need. And that's a classic No True Scottsman, I believe. I use an alt for conversations like this because I genuinely feel soiled afterwards, the level of debate is so low, almost without fail. Dishonesty and politicking all the way down.

pcthrowaway 5y ago

Also a long time vegan and not completely malnourished. Did you read the whole article? It discusses several studies where vegetarians and vegans are given supplements, and generally ends on the note that you absolutely need to supplement to live optimally on a vegan diet. I mostly agree, although I think the title and tone taken at the beginning are uncharitable.