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A poor vegan diet can affect your health just as a poor non-vegan diet can affect your health. Three years ago the CDC said over 42% of Americans are overweigh

A poor vegan diet can affect your health just as a poor non-vegan diet can affect your health. Three years ago the CDC said over 42% of Americans are overweight - most of them are not vegans, and this is often due to a poor diet. The article mentions B12, and it has been known since the 1930s (and before that to some extent) that people need to eat foods with vitamin B12. Vegans and vegetarians need to make sure they get enough B12 and other things, and anyone who has sought to read about a good vegan diet for decades has known this. Just as people know that many non-vegan American diets tend to be too high in saturated fat, sodium, simple sugars etc. The article mentions Gandhi. Many in India have been vegetarian for millennia, including many Brahmin. It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years. That vegans need to make sure they get B12 and the like or they will eventually suffer ill effects is not new information, it has been known for a long time. This whole thing really reads like FUD.

HKH2 5y ago
Americans are overweight because of carbs. I've seen vegans on YouTube putting sugar into banana milkshakes of all things, so I'm led to believe there are quite a few ethical vegans who don't have such a concern for their health.
- avmich 5y ago
  There is a diet, where, in addition to eating vegan, SOFAS products - salt, oil, flour, alcohol, sugar - are to be avoided. Some also avoid "highly processed foods". I guess those who follow these avoid some carb issues.
goodpoint 5y ago
> A poor vegan diet can affect your health just as a poor non-vegan diet can affect your health. Spot on. Plenty of people have poor diets due to habits (e.g. way too much meat) or poverty (e.g. unbalanced diet). The article is clearly cherry-picking examples of uninformed or poor vegans while also ignoring how unhealthy other diets can be. (And no, I'm not vegan myself)
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > The article is clearly cherry-picking examples of uninformed or poor vegans while also ignoring how unhealthy other diets can be. Those "uninformed or poor vegans" (do you mean vegans "with poor eating habits"?) seem to be about half of all vegans: > Results: > Mean serum vitamin B12 was highest among omnivores (281, 95% CI: 270–292 pmol/l), intermediate among vegetarians (182, 95% CI: 175–189 pmol/l) and lowest among vegans (122, 95% CI: 117–127 pmol/l). In all, 52% of vegans, 7% of vegetarians and one omnivore were classified as vitamin B12 deficient (defined as serum vitamin B12 <118 pmol/l). There was no significant association between age or duration of adherence to a vegetarian or a vegan diet and serum vitamin B12. In contrast, folate concentrations were highest among vegans, intermediate among vegetarians and lowest among omnivores, but only two men (both omnivores) were categorized as folate deficient (defined as serum folate <6.3 nmol/l). https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inline https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl... (Study cited in the article)
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    This is only one study. And only from UK. Plus, it's from 11 years ago before a lot of B12 fortified products were introduced. And most importantly, it's only showing decrease in B12 while folates are higher and a healthy diet requires many hundreds nutrients. This is exactly what cherry-picking represents.
    - cheese_goddess 5y ago
      That's one study I happened to read because it was linked in the article. You're welcome to link to the ones you prefer. I have to say though that in conversations like this there's nothing easier than to accuse the other person of "cherry picking". I link to one study, you say "Cherry Picking!". You link to a counter-study, I say "Cherry Picking!". And so on. What's difficult is to accept that there are things we don't know, that data is scarce, that most research results have low statistical power and that lacking solid information at a population level it's irresponsible to promote diets that may cause harm. Like you sya, a healthy diet (probably) requires many hundreds of nutrients. B12 is one of those. To not advise people to do things that may deprive them of necessary nutrients, is the responsible thing to do.
cheese_goddess 5y ago
> The article mentions Gandhi. Many in India have been vegetarian for millennia, including many Brahmin. It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years. There's a lot of B12 deficiency in India, for example: > Conclusion: Prevalence of vitamin B12 deficiency is 47% in north Indian population. People with diabetes have higher vitamin B12 levels than general population though still have high prevalence of deficiency. This data shows that Vitamin B12 deficiency is widespread in Indian population. https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;volume=23;issue=2;spage=211;epage=214;aulast=Singla https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;vol... The study is mentioned in the article.
- KitDuncan 5y ago
  Aren't B12 deficiencies widespread everywhere though? I think I read somewhere that ~40% of the US population is B12 deficient, regardless of diet.
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    > Aren't B12 deficiencies widespread everywhere though? I genuinely don't know but it doesn't matter. It stands to reason that if even meat-eaters are B12 deficient, vegans will be even more so.
musicale 5y ago
> It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years. One interesting question is: where did vegetarians get adequate vitamin b12 before the age of supplements? Perhaps fermented foods, contaminated water, soil on vegetables, use of manure fertilizer, or maybe animal products like eggs and cheese?
- sterlind 5y ago
  yeah, I've heard it argued that B12 is produced by a lot of soil bacteria, which would have been sufficient for historic vegans.. but now since plants are washed we don't get B12 (and salmonella!) from plant sources.
dleacock 5y ago
The article makes it seem like B12 naturally comes from meat, which is does not, the animals are given B12 supplements.
- spicymaki 5y ago
  The omega 3 DHA/EPA in fish comes from algae and can be supplemented directly. ALA in canola oil, soybean oil, chia/flax seeds can be processed by the human body to make DHA/EPA.
option_greek 5y ago
And since it mentions India, the mathematician Ramanujan was a vegetarian (not vegan) and I'm not sure if people can argue it held him back. I guess the article does it self a great disservice by combining Vegan with Vegetarian all over the place and all based on one study on children from a poor nation who might even be suffering from calorie/protein deficits. Still, Vegans do have to be careful as its really easy to fall in to deficiencies of various kinds. Its especially difficult for Western Vegetarians or Vegans compared to Indians as Indian vegetarians rely on their traditional meal combinations to ensure various nutrient needs are taken care of (unintentionally through tradition/culture).
- anikan_vader 5y ago
  Funny you mention Ramanujan… It’s thought that his dislike of English food greatly contributed to his poor health, as he couldn’t find any good vegetarian food in England. This culminated in him dying of TB at a very young age. It’s hard to imagine what math would be like today if he had made it another 40 years.
- pcthrowaway 5y ago
  Worth noting that vegetarian in India means lacto-vegetarian (eating dairy, but no eggs).

HKH2 5y ago

Americans are overweight because of carbs. I've seen vegans on YouTube putting sugar into banana milkshakes of all things, so I'm led to believe there are quite a few ethical vegans who don't have such a concern for their health.

avmich 5y ago
There is a diet, where, in addition to eating vegan, SOFAS products - salt, oil, flour, alcohol, sugar - are to be avoided. Some also avoid "highly processed foods". I guess those who follow these avoid some carb issues.

goodpoint 5y ago

> A poor vegan diet can affect your health just as a poor non-vegan diet can affect your health. Spot on. Plenty of people have poor diets due to habits (e.g. way too much meat) or poverty (e.g. unbalanced diet). The article is clearly cherry-picking examples of uninformed or poor vegans while also ignoring how unhealthy other diets can be. (And no, I'm not vegan myself)

cheese_goddess 5y ago
> The article is clearly cherry-picking examples of uninformed or poor vegans while also ignoring how unhealthy other diets can be. Those "uninformed or poor vegans" (do you mean vegans "with poor eating habits"?) seem to be about half of all vegans: > Results: > Mean serum vitamin B12 was highest among omnivores (281, 95% CI: 270–292 pmol/l), intermediate among vegetarians (182, 95% CI: 175–189 pmol/l) and lowest among vegans (122, 95% CI: 117–127 pmol/l). In all, 52% of vegans, 7% of vegetarians and one omnivore were classified as vitamin B12 deficient (defined as serum vitamin B12 <118 pmol/l). There was no significant association between age or duration of adherence to a vegetarian or a vegan diet and serum vitamin B12. In contrast, folate concentrations were highest among vegans, intermediate among vegetarians and lowest among omnivores, but only two men (both omnivores) were categorized as folate deficient (defined as serum folate <6.3 nmol/l). https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inline https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl... (Study cited in the article)
- goodpoint 5y ago
  This is only one study. And only from UK. Plus, it's from 11 years ago before a lot of B12 fortified products were introduced. And most importantly, it's only showing decrease in B12 while folates are higher and a healthy diet requires many hundreds nutrients. This is exactly what cherry-picking represents.
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    That's one study I happened to read because it was linked in the article. You're welcome to link to the ones you prefer. I have to say though that in conversations like this there's nothing easier than to accuse the other person of "cherry picking". I link to one study, you say "Cherry Picking!". You link to a counter-study, I say "Cherry Picking!". And so on. What's difficult is to accept that there are things we don't know, that data is scarce, that most research results have low statistical power and that lacking solid information at a population level it's irresponsible to promote diets that may cause harm. Like you sya, a healthy diet (probably) requires many hundreds of nutrients. B12 is one of those. To not advise people to do things that may deprive them of necessary nutrients, is the responsible thing to do.

cheese_goddess 5y ago

> The article mentions Gandhi. Many in India have been vegetarian for millennia, including many Brahmin. It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years. There's a lot of B12 deficiency in India, for example: > Conclusion: Prevalence of vitamin B12 deficiency is 47% in north Indian population. People with diabetes have higher vitamin B12 levels than general population though still have high prevalence of deficiency. This data shows that Vitamin B12 deficiency is widespread in Indian population. https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;volume=23;issue=2;spage=211;epage=214;aulast=Singla https://www.ijem.in/article.asp?issn=2230-8210;year=2019;vol... The study is mentioned in the article.

KitDuncan 5y ago
Aren't B12 deficiencies widespread everywhere though? I think I read somewhere that ~40% of the US population is B12 deficient, regardless of diet.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > Aren't B12 deficiencies widespread everywhere though? I genuinely don't know but it doesn't matter. It stands to reason that if even meat-eaters are B12 deficient, vegans will be even more so.

musicale 5y ago

> It seems to have worked for them over the past 3000 years. One interesting question is: where did vegetarians get adequate vitamin b12 before the age of supplements? Perhaps fermented foods, contaminated water, soil on vegetables, use of manure fertilizer, or maybe animal products like eggs and cheese?

sterlind 5y ago
yeah, I've heard it argued that B12 is produced by a lot of soil bacteria, which would have been sufficient for historic vegans.. but now since plants are washed we don't get B12 (and salmonella!) from plant sources.

dleacock 5y ago

The article makes it seem like B12 naturally comes from meat, which is does not, the animals are given B12 supplements.

spicymaki 5y ago
The omega 3 DHA/EPA in fish comes from algae and can be supplemented directly. ALA in canola oil, soybean oil, chia/flax seeds can be processed by the human body to make DHA/EPA.

option_greek 5y ago

And since it mentions India, the mathematician Ramanujan was a vegetarian (not vegan) and I'm not sure if people can argue it held him back. I guess the article does it self a great disservice by combining Vegan with Vegetarian all over the place and all based on one study on children from a poor nation who might even be suffering from calorie/protein deficits. Still, Vegans do have to be careful as its really easy to fall in to deficiencies of various kinds. Its especially difficult for Western Vegetarians or Vegans compared to Indians as Indian vegetarians rely on their traditional meal combinations to ensure various nutrient needs are taken care of (unintentionally through tradition/culture).

anikan_vader 5y ago
Funny you mention Ramanujan… It’s thought that his dislike of English food greatly contributed to his poor health, as he couldn’t find any good vegetarian food in England. This culminated in him dying of TB at a very young age. It’s hard to imagine what math would be like today if he had made it another 40 years.
pcthrowaway 5y ago
Worth noting that vegetarian in India means lacto-vegetarian (eating dairy, but no eggs).