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It makes no sense to take that vaccine to me. But I'm watching the absolute majority go and inject it into their bodies.

geofft 5y ago
You both raise an interesting point - the most common reason cited for not getting the vaccine is safety. People say that it hasn't been tested, that we don't know what it does, that people "shed the spike protein," etc. Which I think reinforces my point about the bias of this source, actually: if they were genuinely worried about "safetyism," they would be interested in trying to figure out why so many otherwise-well-adjusted adults seem afraid to take this vaccine, afraid of other people "shedding," afraid of attacks on civil liberties if they wear a mask, afraid that businesses will go under, afraid of a New Normal, and so forth. They would be asking how to make people less afraid of all these things; as they say, progress is impossible without physical or emotional risk. But they have concluded, a priori, that the problem is public health officials being too "safetyist," and they're interested only in research that supports that conclusion. I do, actually, think both of you should be prohibited from participating in society if you refuse to take the vaccine, and I think that this position is at least as justifiable as anything CSPI believes. I do think that both of you are making bad cost-benefit analyses in refusing to take the vaccine, and this is a problem for society that should be fixed.
- ghoward 5y ago
  > ...and this is a problem for society that should be fixed. Yikes! So you now refer to people you disagree with as problems that society must fix? What about if I get the vaccine and then suffer an adverse reaction that must be paid for by society (the government)? Does that not affect society either? Should we fix that problem? Here's why you are wrong: * COVID hardly kills. * New Zealand just announced that they are locking down over one case of COVID. * The vaccines are losing effectiveness. * Vaccinated people can still spread the virus. To be honest with you, believing that people who make bad cost-benefit analyses should be prohibited from participating in society is an argument for the War on Drugs. Do you like the War on Drugs? I don't.
  - lovich 5y ago
    > Covid hardly kills Can we stop with the blatant falsehoods? In the US it was the third leading cause of death. It was over 10% of all deaths. The only way this “hardly” kills is if you twist the definition of hardly so badly that nothing meets that bar
    - ghoward 5y ago
      > The only way this “hardly” kills is if you twist the definition of hardly so badly that nothing meets that bar How about ratio of cases to deaths? That's what I meant. Obesity hardly kills by my definition, but kills a lot by yours.
      - nradov 5y ago
        The CDC estimates that the ratio of cases to deaths is about 156 to 1 since the start of the pandemic. The ratio is now dramatically better for vaccinated patients who are far less likely to die if they do get infected. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
    - NoPie 5y ago
      > It was over 10% of all deaths. With vaccines it will be less than 1% which is not much. Yearly variations can be easily 10% for any other cause.
  - geofft 5y ago
    I said "this," not "you." I believe that the decision you made is a problem for society. I am no more referring to people I disagree with as a problem than CSPI is referring to the public health officials as people as a problem. They're calling the decisions by those officials a problem. If you think that is tantamount to calling the people themselves a problem, then please be fair and apply your criticism to CSPI as well as myself. I believe that if you suffer an adverse reaction, it should be paid for by society/the government, and that's a good thing (e.g., it incentivizes the government not to mandate vaccines that are likely to cause adverse reactions). The vaccine "hardly" causes adverse reactions, in at least a strong a sense of "hardly" as you are using it. I do not believe that people who are taking drugs are making bad cost/benefit analyses, so I do not agree with your conclusion about the War on Drugs because I reject the premise.

geofft 5y ago

You both raise an interesting point - the most common reason cited for not getting the vaccine is safety. People say that it hasn't been tested, that we don't know what it does, that people "shed the spike protein," etc. Which I think reinforces my point about the bias of this source, actually: if they were genuinely worried about "safetyism," they would be interested in trying to figure out why so many otherwise-well-adjusted adults seem afraid to take this vaccine, afraid of other people "shedding," afraid of attacks on civil liberties if they wear a mask, afraid that businesses will go under, afraid of a New Normal, and so forth. They would be asking how to make people less afraid of all these things; as they say, progress is impossible without physical or emotional risk. But they have concluded, a priori, that the problem is public health officials being too "safetyist," and they're interested only in research that supports that conclusion. I do, actually, think both of you should be prohibited from participating in society if you refuse to take the vaccine, and I think that this position is at least as justifiable as anything CSPI believes. I do think that both of you are making bad cost-benefit analyses in refusing to take the vaccine, and this is a problem for society that should be fixed.

ghoward 5y ago
> ...and this is a problem for society that should be fixed. Yikes! So you now refer to people you disagree with as problems that society must fix? What about if I get the vaccine and then suffer an adverse reaction that must be paid for by society (the government)? Does that not affect society either? Should we fix that problem? Here's why you are wrong: * COVID hardly kills. * New Zealand just announced that they are locking down over one case of COVID. * The vaccines are losing effectiveness. * Vaccinated people can still spread the virus. To be honest with you, believing that people who make bad cost-benefit analyses should be prohibited from participating in society is an argument for the War on Drugs. Do you like the War on Drugs? I don't.
- lovich 5y ago
  > Covid hardly kills Can we stop with the blatant falsehoods? In the US it was the third leading cause of death. It was over 10% of all deaths. The only way this “hardly” kills is if you twist the definition of hardly so badly that nothing meets that bar
  - ghoward 5y ago
    > The only way this “hardly” kills is if you twist the definition of hardly so badly that nothing meets that bar How about ratio of cases to deaths? That's what I meant. Obesity hardly kills by my definition, but kills a lot by yours.
    - nradov 5y ago
      The CDC estimates that the ratio of cases to deaths is about 156 to 1 since the start of the pandemic. The ratio is now dramatically better for vaccinated patients who are far less likely to die if they do get infected. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
  - NoPie 5y ago
    > It was over 10% of all deaths. With vaccines it will be less than 1% which is not much. Yearly variations can be easily 10% for any other cause.
- geofft 5y ago
  I said "this," not "you." I believe that the decision you made is a problem for society. I am no more referring to people I disagree with as a problem than CSPI is referring to the public health officials as people as a problem. They're calling the decisions by those officials a problem. If you think that is tantamount to calling the people themselves a problem, then please be fair and apply your criticism to CSPI as well as myself. I believe that if you suffer an adverse reaction, it should be paid for by society/the government, and that's a good thing (e.g., it incentivizes the government not to mandate vaccines that are likely to cause adverse reactions). The vaccine "hardly" causes adverse reactions, in at least a strong a sense of "hardly" as you are using it. I do not believe that people who are taking drugs are making bad cost/benefit analyses, so I do not agree with your conclusion about the War on Drugs because I reject the premise.