11 ms·

South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

242 points by edward 5y ago

bloqs 5y ago
I havent read the full article, but why is this the number 2 story on HN? Have I sorted incorrectly?
- lbriner 5y ago
  Because older articles lose karma and drop down the list. Not many new highly voted articles for today yet.
- teh_klev 5y ago
  > but why is this the number 2 story on HN? Because it's interesting to a lot of folks.
- swiley 5y ago
  Because transit infrastructure is really neat.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  Because it is (1) interesting (2) new to nearly all (3) something that people want more on HN (4) on topic here
- iamhamm 5y ago
  I can’t tell you why this is the #2 story, but fortunately your comment is dead last so I’ve got some evidence the ranking algorithms are working appropriately.
- fortran77 5y ago
  I've never known a hacker who didn't like trains and escalators.
lbriner 5y ago
This is a great example of why underground railways are so expensive to run. I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. Not only is it expensive to install equipment, you then have to maintain it and replace it and in this example, not even "like for like" are going to fit in the same space. When I used to go round various equipment rooms, there was electrical equipment that was the best part of 100 years old. Who would ever remove it in case it is wired into the signalling system or whatever? For that reason, they have to wait and then do a massive re-signalling etc. so they can safely remove everything and put nice expensive new stuff in!
- bregma 5y ago
  > I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. The subsurface lines were profitable for at least their first 50 years. Oddly, their profitability started to tumble at about the same time as the rise of the automobile, reinforced by the foreign-based urban renewal blitz that occurred a couple of decades later in which many homes and places of employment were forced to relocate.
- simpleigh 5y ago
  That's not right, I'm afraid - the Underground is usually profitable and subsidises loss-making forms of transport (particularly buses). Here's some high-level, pre-pandemic figures: https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and-operating-costs.html https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and... (based on TfL's draft budget for 2018-19)
  - 7952 5y ago
    There is so much pent up demand for transport in the UK that it completely distorts things. You can have a system that is overcrowded, profit making, expensive for users, and underfunded all at the same time. The economic pulls that could fix this are outweighed by things like housing costs.
  - hogFeast 5y ago
    The govt bailed them out last year.
noneeeed 5y ago
Fascinating post as always from Ian. My dad used to work for the underground and hearing him talk about the challenges of the engineering down there was always fascinating. This is especially true for the deep tunnels and the older parts of the network. Trying to keep the whole network dry, when you are dealing with brickwork that might be 100 or more years old, in a water table that has risen a lot following the end of heavy industry in London sounded like a particularly tricky issue. Add in the constrained space and often very limited access on the deep lines and you can understand why it can take so long to do some projects, and why things like longer operating hours might sound nice but have significant knock-on effects.
- m4rtink 5y ago
  How did the heavy industry influence the water table ? I guess they used a lot of water from wells, lowering the water table ?
  - noneeeed 5y ago
    Yep, basically. Water use is one of those hidden effects of a lot of industrial processes, whether it's used as a coolant or a solvant for processes it often takes a ridiculous amount to produce many goods. In the past the water would be pumped up from boreholes (London sits on an artesian basin), and was then discharged into the Thames (directly or through the waste water system). This happens a lot less now, because of both a reduction in the amount of industry and improvements in efficiency, so the water table has risen, which means that TfL have to pump out a lot more water than they had to decades ago.
    - m4rtink 5y ago
      Oh, interesting! I guess the local hydrology here in Czech Republic is different as AFAIK all the old industry around here used to take (a lot!) of water from the local rivers, artificial mill water channels, etc. Haven't heard about them ever using wells in any significant way.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
traceroute66 5y ago
To be honest, for me the most interesting part of the blog post was this one-liner "for an unbuilt high-speed District line service between South Kensington and Mansion House with just one stop at Embankment.". As one of the millions who at some historical point in their lives has had to suffer the District line commute, the above is a thought I used to have regularly whilst stuck sniffing someone's armpit on the District line ... why can't they have non-stop services intermingled with normal traffic (just like in any other number of countries around the world). They could have used the same rails, no need for a separate line (just like other countries around the world)... its a shame London Underground seemingly only considered the most expensive option (building separate tracks and tunnels for the non-stop).
- brainwad 5y ago
  Express services on shared track isn't common on metro systems. NYC's express subways all use dedicated track, for instance. The tendency to not keep to a strict timetable and the close-running of metro systems makes it hard to slot express trains into gaps between local trains properly.
  - traceroute66 5y ago
    > The tendency to not keep to a strict timetable and the close-running of metro systems makes it hard to slot express trains into gaps between local trains properly. To be fair, "close-running" is not a word that tends to be associated with the District line ... "signal failure" is, however ! ;-)
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      The central section (including the Circle Line) has a service interval of 2-2½ minutes, depending on the time of day. The rest has roughly 2-10 minute intervals.
  - zhte415 5y ago
    Trivia. The timetable, or Working Table, for all London Underground train movements is here https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/workin...
barneybooroo 5y ago
It is amazing how what might seem like fairly routine engineering jobs become completely nightmarish once you do it underground. I used to commute via Goodge Street every day. A few years ago they replaced the four lifts (in twos so that two were still in service) which ultimately took two years. I could never really fathom what it was that specifically slowed that down so much but hey the lift congestion every morning was fun
- jaclaz 5y ago
  From experience in construction (both open air and underground) the key difference is not about something being underground, but rather with something being "in use" while the building site is doing the whatever work is needed. Particularly when it is something of public use, be it a highway or a railway, the amount of precautions, limitations and safety risks (in some cases for both the public and the workers) grows incredibly, slowing down considerably any intervention.
  - bartread 5y ago
    This happens in software too. Over the last 4 years our team has achieved a lot: huge numbers of valuable changes and improvements to our platform. But it's been much harder than it might otherwise have been because we've had to make those changes with the systems in use. Had we started from scratch, or been able to take downtime, there are a lot of projects we could have done much more quickly, but we had to keep the business running - it is, after all, what was and is paying all of our salaries.
    - tomfanning 5y ago
      Isn't this completely standard practice now?
      - bartread 5y ago
        Not always. I've worked on all sorts with different companies.
scoopr 5y ago
> Down here, there’s no space for heavy machinery, so all the rubble had to be shifted by hand I wonder, if the engineering train couldn't fit a small loader, something like Avant (perhaps E6 for being electric for confined spaces), though I'm sure there exist some smaller ones too. Or maybe engineering train could be fitted with a HIAB style thing..
FabHK 5y ago
The article didn't mention the length of the escalator? Longest ones apparently are to be found at the Park Pobedy metro station in Moscow at 126 m, and in St Petersburg. Longest escalator system, and my favourite, is the Hong Kong Central–Mid-Levels escalator, at 790 m (2,600 ft). Many people's commute to work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator Escalator accidents: 1982 Moscow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviamotornaya_(Kalininsko–Solntsevskaya_line) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviamotornaya_(Kalininsko–Soln... 2018 Rome https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/23/hurt-in-rome-metro-escalator-incident https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/23/hurt-in-rome-m...
- coremoff 5y ago
  the 1987 King's Cross fire was also escalator related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Cross_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Cross_fire Smoking on the escalators, wooden steps, and build-up of trash in the inaccessible area underneath them all contributed.
  - lbriner 5y ago
    If you want a really interesting read, which is great at showing how a methodical enquiry is carried out is here: https://www.theisrm.org/documents/Fennel%20(1988)%20Investigation%20Intointo%20the%20Kings%20Cross%20Fire.pdf https://www.theisrm.org/documents/Fennel%20(1988)%20Investig... It might look long but is still really interesting to read, the simple questions that needed to be answered, the interviews and the conclusion.
  - seryoiupfurds 5y ago
    > This sudden transition in intensity, and the spout of fire, was due to the previously unknown trench effect, discovered by the computer simulation of the fire, and confirmed in two scale model tests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_effect
  - walshemj 5y ago
    I just missed that fire as I left early that day to get back home for a DnD game. My normal commute would have taken me right into the center of the fire.
piinbinary 5y ago
It's really cool that they can use the train tracks to bring stuff into and out of the station. It seems obvious in retrospect, but that had never occurred to me before.
- blamazon 5y ago
  In New York City there is currently a project ongoing deep underneath Grand Central Terminal to add an entirely new 8-track, 350,000sqft station connecting Grand Central to the Long Island Railroad. Similarly, all materials for that project enter and exit from the other end of the project tunnel in Queens. New York City at ground level has no indication that the work is ongoing 140 feet below their… well, feet. Very neat!
- Symbiote 5y ago
  If you use the London Underground late enough, you occasionally see engineering trains pass through. I think they move them to sidings in central London very late in the evening, so that after the last passenger train has departed (00:30-01:00) the equipment/materials can be where they're needed in just a few minutes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_engineering_stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_engineering... [2] A web search for "London Underground engineering train". [3] http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/ http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/ (detailed map, showing sidings etc)
  - _jal 5y ago
    Speaking of special-purpose trains, the NYC MTA used to run an armored train for collecting fares from stations. https://untappedcities.com/2016/02/12/the-mtas-special-armored-money-train-that-ran-from-1951-to-2006-in-nyc/ https://untappedcities.com/2016/02/12/the-mtas-special-armor...
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      Lots of systems did that, including Toronto, and for daily trash collection too. But logistically it's simpler to do that via surface streets nowadays, especially with late-night or all-night train service.
csours 5y ago
I wonder what Mitch Hedberg would have to say about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1ryH3igKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1ryH3igKc Unfortunately, escalators can break catastrophically - See these comments in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28208925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28208925
Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
I remember hearing that the very long walk between South Kensington station and the Exhibition Road exit (for the museums) is because the line was routed far away from Exhibition Road to avoid vibrations from the trains disturbing sensitive experiments at Imperial College.
knolan 5y ago
This was my daily commute back when I was a post doc at Imperial College. Good memories of London.

242 points by edward 5y ago

bloqs 5y ago

I havent read the full article, but why is this the number 2 story on HN? Have I sorted incorrectly?

lbriner 5y ago
Because older articles lose karma and drop down the list. Not many new highly voted articles for today yet.
teh_klev 5y ago
> but why is this the number 2 story on HN? Because it's interesting to a lot of folks.
swiley 5y ago
Because transit infrastructure is really neat.
matkoniecz 5y ago
Because it is (1) interesting (2) new to nearly all (3) something that people want more on HN (4) on topic here
iamhamm 5y ago
I can’t tell you why this is the #2 story, but fortunately your comment is dead last so I’ve got some evidence the ranking algorithms are working appropriately.
fortran77 5y ago
I've never known a hacker who didn't like trains and escalators.

lbriner 5y ago

This is a great example of why underground railways are so expensive to run. I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. Not only is it expensive to install equipment, you then have to maintain it and replace it and in this example, not even "like for like" are going to fit in the same space. When I used to go round various equipment rooms, there was electrical equipment that was the best part of 100 years old. Who would ever remove it in case it is wired into the signalling system or whatever? For that reason, they have to wait and then do a massive re-signalling etc. so they can safely remove everything and put nice expensive new stuff in!

bregma 5y ago
> I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. The subsurface lines were profitable for at least their first 50 years. Oddly, their profitability started to tumble at about the same time as the rise of the automobile, reinforced by the foreign-based urban renewal blitz that occurred a couple of decades later in which many homes and places of employment were forced to relocate.
simpleigh 5y ago
That's not right, I'm afraid - the Underground is usually profitable and subsidises loss-making forms of transport (particularly buses). Here's some high-level, pre-pandemic figures: https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and-operating-costs.html https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and... (based on TfL's draft budget for 2018-19)
- 7952 5y ago
  There is so much pent up demand for transport in the UK that it completely distorts things. You can have a system that is overcrowded, profit making, expensive for users, and underfunded all at the same time. The economic pulls that could fix this are outweighed by things like housing costs.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  The govt bailed them out last year.

noneeeed 5y ago

Fascinating post as always from Ian. My dad used to work for the underground and hearing him talk about the challenges of the engineering down there was always fascinating. This is especially true for the deep tunnels and the older parts of the network. Trying to keep the whole network dry, when you are dealing with brickwork that might be 100 or more years old, in a water table that has risen a lot following the end of heavy industry in London sounded like a particularly tricky issue. Add in the constrained space and often very limited access on the deep lines and you can understand why it can take so long to do some projects, and why things like longer operating hours might sound nice but have significant knock-on effects.

m4rtink 5y ago
How did the heavy industry influence the water table ? I guess they used a lot of water from wells, lowering the water table ?
- noneeeed 5y ago
  Yep, basically. Water use is one of those hidden effects of a lot of industrial processes, whether it's used as a coolant or a solvant for processes it often takes a ridiculous amount to produce many goods. In the past the water would be pumped up from boreholes (London sits on an artesian basin), and was then discharged into the Thames (directly or through the waste water system). This happens a lot less now, because of both a reduction in the amount of industry and improvements in efficiency, so the water table has risen, which means that TfL have to pump out a lot more water than they had to decades ago.
  - m4rtink 5y ago
    Oh, interesting! I guess the local hydrology here in Czech Republic is different as AFAIK all the old industry around here used to take (a lot!) of water from the local rivers, artificial mill water channels, etc. Haven't heard about them ever using wells in any significant way.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

traceroute66 5y ago

To be honest, for me the most interesting part of the blog post was this one-liner "for an unbuilt high-speed District line service between South Kensington and Mansion House with just one stop at Embankment.". As one of the millions who at some historical point in their lives has had to suffer the District line commute, the above is a thought I used to have regularly whilst stuck sniffing someone's armpit on the District line ... why can't they have non-stop services intermingled with normal traffic (just like in any other number of countries around the world). They could have used the same rails, no need for a separate line (just like other countries around the world)... its a shame London Underground seemingly only considered the most expensive option (building separate tracks and tunnels for the non-stop).

brainwad 5y ago
Express services on shared track isn't common on metro systems. NYC's express subways all use dedicated track, for instance. The tendency to not keep to a strict timetable and the close-running of metro systems makes it hard to slot express trains into gaps between local trains properly.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  > The tendency to not keep to a strict timetable and the close-running of metro systems makes it hard to slot express trains into gaps between local trains properly. To be fair, "close-running" is not a word that tends to be associated with the District line ... "signal failure" is, however ! ;-)
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    The central section (including the Circle Line) has a service interval of 2-2½ minutes, depending on the time of day. The rest has roughly 2-10 minute intervals.
- zhte415 5y ago
  Trivia. The timetable, or Working Table, for all London Underground train movements is here https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/workin...

barneybooroo 5y ago

It is amazing how what might seem like fairly routine engineering jobs become completely nightmarish once you do it underground. I used to commute via Goodge Street every day. A few years ago they replaced the four lifts (in twos so that two were still in service) which ultimately took two years. I could never really fathom what it was that specifically slowed that down so much but hey the lift congestion every morning was fun

jaclaz 5y ago
From experience in construction (both open air and underground) the key difference is not about something being underground, but rather with something being "in use" while the building site is doing the whatever work is needed. Particularly when it is something of public use, be it a highway or a railway, the amount of precautions, limitations and safety risks (in some cases for both the public and the workers) grows incredibly, slowing down considerably any intervention.
- bartread 5y ago
  This happens in software too. Over the last 4 years our team has achieved a lot: huge numbers of valuable changes and improvements to our platform. But it's been much harder than it might otherwise have been because we've had to make those changes with the systems in use. Had we started from scratch, or been able to take downtime, there are a lot of projects we could have done much more quickly, but we had to keep the business running - it is, after all, what was and is paying all of our salaries.
  - tomfanning 5y ago
    Isn't this completely standard practice now?
    - bartread 5y ago
      Not always. I've worked on all sorts with different companies.

scoopr 5y ago

> Down here, there’s no space for heavy machinery, so all the rubble had to be shifted by hand I wonder, if the engineering train couldn't fit a small loader, something like Avant (perhaps E6 for being electric for confined spaces), though I'm sure there exist some smaller ones too. Or maybe engineering train could be fitted with a HIAB style thing..

FabHK 5y ago

The article didn't mention the length of the escalator? Longest ones apparently are to be found at the Park Pobedy metro station in Moscow at 126 m, and in St Petersburg. Longest escalator system, and my favourite, is the Hong Kong Central–Mid-Levels escalator, at 790 m (2,600 ft). Many people's commute to work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator Escalator accidents: 1982 Moscow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviamotornaya_(Kalininsko–Solntsevskaya_line) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviamotornaya_(Kalininsko–Soln... 2018 Rome https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/23/hurt-in-rome-metro-escalator-incident https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/23/hurt-in-rome-m...

coremoff 5y ago
the 1987 King's Cross fire was also escalator related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Cross_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Cross_fire Smoking on the escalators, wooden steps, and build-up of trash in the inaccessible area underneath them all contributed.
- lbriner 5y ago
  If you want a really interesting read, which is great at showing how a methodical enquiry is carried out is here: https://www.theisrm.org/documents/Fennel%20(1988)%20Investigation%20Intointo%20the%20Kings%20Cross%20Fire.pdf https://www.theisrm.org/documents/Fennel%20(1988)%20Investig... It might look long but is still really interesting to read, the simple questions that needed to be answered, the interviews and the conclusion.
- seryoiupfurds 5y ago
  > This sudden transition in intensity, and the spout of fire, was due to the previously unknown trench effect, discovered by the computer simulation of the fire, and confirmed in two scale model tests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_effect
- walshemj 5y ago
  I just missed that fire as I left early that day to get back home for a DnD game. My normal commute would have taken me right into the center of the fire.

piinbinary 5y ago

It's really cool that they can use the train tracks to bring stuff into and out of the station. It seems obvious in retrospect, but that had never occurred to me before.

blamazon 5y ago
In New York City there is currently a project ongoing deep underneath Grand Central Terminal to add an entirely new 8-track, 350,000sqft station connecting Grand Central to the Long Island Railroad. Similarly, all materials for that project enter and exit from the other end of the project tunnel in Queens. New York City at ground level has no indication that the work is ongoing 140 feet below their… well, feet. Very neat!
Symbiote 5y ago
If you use the London Underground late enough, you occasionally see engineering trains pass through. I think they move them to sidings in central London very late in the evening, so that after the last passenger train has departed (00:30-01:00) the equipment/materials can be where they're needed in just a few minutes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_engineering_stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_engineering... [2] A web search for "London Underground engineering train". [3] http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/ http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/ (detailed map, showing sidings etc)
- _jal 5y ago
  Speaking of special-purpose trains, the NYC MTA used to run an armored train for collecting fares from stations. https://untappedcities.com/2016/02/12/the-mtas-special-armored-money-train-that-ran-from-1951-to-2006-in-nyc/ https://untappedcities.com/2016/02/12/the-mtas-special-armor...
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Lots of systems did that, including Toronto, and for daily trash collection too. But logistically it's simpler to do that via surface streets nowadays, especially with late-night or all-night train service.

csours 5y ago

I wonder what Mitch Hedberg would have to say about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1ryH3igKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1ryH3igKc Unfortunately, escalators can break catastrophically - See these comments in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28208925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28208925

Ichthypresbyter 5y ago

I remember hearing that the very long walk between South Kensington station and the Exhibition Road exit (for the museums) is because the line was routed far away from Exhibition Road to avoid vibrations from the trains disturbing sensitive experiments at Imperial College.

knolan 5y ago

This was my daily commute back when I was a post doc at Imperial College. Good memories of London.