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The west is also responsible for producing and glamorizing extremely wasteful lifestyles. We could have bulk food grocery stores where you can bring re-used gla

The west is also responsible for producing and glamorizing extremely wasteful lifestyles. We could have bulk food grocery stores where you can bring re-used glass jars but instead everything is wrapped in multiple layers of plastic meant to be tossed as soon as the product is consumed. The USA has pushed an extremely materialistic lifestyle that has driven the mass manufacture of plastic waste. Western countries need to take responsibility for the waste we produce instead of sending it “away” to be somebody else’s problem. Edit: Just expanding on glass jars - I started saving all of my glass jars about a year ago. My shelf of jars is overflowing now, and they have many uses. I use peanut butter jars to hold my daily smoothie. I make candles with the jam jars. We know the plastics industry pushed disposable products hard. And to me it speaks to a broader problem with US business logic - lie cheat and steal at any cost and that is "good" for society. There may be unseemly actions down the waste stream but we are responsible for the culture that produces so much trash.

stickfigure 5y ago
I've travelled a fair bit in the "non-west" and they use the same packaging everyone else does.
- deadalus 5y ago
  It is well known that Americans consume far more natural resources and live much less sustainably than people from any other large country of the world. “A child born in the United States will create thirteen times as much ecological damage over the course of his or her lifetime than a child born in Brazil,” reports the Sierra Club’s Dave Tilford, adding that the average American will drain as many resources as 35 natives of India and consume 53 times more goods and services than someone from China. Source : https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-consumption/ https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-c...
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    Its also somewhat of a "lead by example" situation. Those most capable of implementing solutions should implement every solution they have and show how it can be done and then the rest of the world will follow or at least feel the pressure. Rather than rich countries with citizens living the most resource intensive lifestyles possible judging people in poverty for not having better than first world waste treatment.
    - crubier 5y ago
      I really think that the « lead by example » thing is understated. Developed countries leading by example and demonstrating that sustainable development is profitable and successful is the only way to transform the current situation into a future in which the « polluting stage of development » is understood as being only a transient phase of development and not an end state.
  - christophilus 5y ago
    As a father of three American kids, I see this first hand. I read (I think it was in Minimalist Parenting) that the average American kid has something like 40x the number of toys of the Average kid from a developing country. Dunno if it’s true, but I think it’s in the right ballpark. My wife and I have tried to minimize waste. We generally buy used, etc. We have also tried to buy mostly non-plastic toys. But man, is it an uphill battle. People just love to give us random stuff. For example, my dad rants about “Cheap Chinese crap”, but then turns around and buys my kids “Cheap Chinese crap” even after I’ve made it clear that I want less clutter in our lives. There is a constant pressure on American parents to give their kids toys / experiences / entertainment. It comes from observing the frenetic activity of other parents, from targeted ads, from everywhere. But the fact is, kids just need to have a childhood. They don’t need their days stuffed with scheduled activities, the latest toys, etc. Just idle time, imagination, and quality attention from loving parents (Just a little attention everyday goes a long way.) /rant Anyway, advice on how to exit the American way is very much welcome.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Ask for books. Tell your family that your children have enough toys, but what they're really missing out on is stories and games to play, and knowledge about the world. Maybe throw in a “computer games and internet are bad” if you think it'll fit your target audience.
    - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      The number of toys or things is a misleading metric. I have a toddler, and she has likely has 50x the number of toys, but 99% of them are recycled gifts that were handed off to us, or obtained through groups like our local BuyNothing, or from neighbors. Her book collection of children's books, and sing-along books is pretty astounding, but we didn't buy a single one. Much of our toddler clothes, and baby clothes was likewise donated to us from local families that outgrew them, as fast growing children can wear smaller sizes for just a few months. When all of our kids have outgrown them, we plan on sharing them likewise.
    - shaftway 5y ago
      > Anyway, advice on how to exit the American way is very much welcome. We've made a big deal about giving the kids "experience gifts". Sometimes it's lessons (my daughter got a week at a horseback riding camp, my son got dirt bike lessons). Sometimes it's a trip (we've taken the kids on 3 separate cross-country road trips with tons of stops at national parks). Sometimes it's a pass to a water park or minigolf place. The kids get involved in the experience they want, so they're emotionally invested and it doesn't feel forced for them. The only rule really is that the thing can't be about electronics (i.e. no going to a video arcade). Once we established that, we asked that grandparents do the same. Usually this is each set of grandparents taking the kids for a week or more in the summer, but they get creative sometimes. It's been four years and the kids are much happier with this than the random junk, and have said so.
- yc12340 5y ago
  The "non-west" countries are forced to regularly buy bespoke amount of US goods as official tribute to their suzerain [1]. Other countries might not have much better packaging policies, but if you want a war on plastic waste, US and Europe are some of best places to start it. 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/22/china-failed-to-buy-agreed-amounts-of-us-goods-in-phase-one-trade-deal-data.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/22/china-failed-to-buy-agreed-a...
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    The best recycling countries are found in Europe.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Reduce, re-use, and only then recycle.
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        Which one does the US do better?
imacerealkiller 5y ago
On the topic of bulk grocery shops, it would be really great if more people shop there (I’m in Vienna and we have a few but they’re struggling) but realistically, i don’t think the general crowd is ready to make such a drastic lifestyle change.I would be happy enough if supermarkets at least try and encourage people to go for the packaging free option, or provide incentives in this regard. It’s ridiculous and nonsensical that they charge more for you to buy your groceries loose aka without packaging. It’s like they’re punishing you for not going for the packet of 6 Granny Smith apples all wrapped in plastic and cardboard.
- Talanes 5y ago
  >It’s like they’re punishing you for not going for the packet of 6 Granny Smith apples all wrapped in plastic and cardboard. I've always run on the gut assumption that they must be putting the worst apples that still look appealing into those packages.
  - imacerealkiller 5y ago
    Hahaha I'm sure somewhere out there, someone's opened a packaging and turned the apple around to find it all brown and disgusting on the other concealed side!
  - fian 5y ago
    The packaging has a barcode so it can be scanned faster at a checkout. Faster scanning means less checkouts and staff which means lower capital and operating costs.
    - herbst 5y ago
      In central Europe we weight our Vegs and fruits ourselfs and apply a bar code to whatever bag in the majority of super markets. I sometimes collect these codes on my hand and just put all the Vegs in a cloth bag.
      - imacerealkiller 5y ago
ornornor 5y ago
Meanwhile, nearly every possible vegetable and fruit is wrapped in plastic when bought at a supermarket in Switzerland. It’s infuriating. They have their own skin and are sold by weight. Why do we need to wrap them in plastic??
swiley 5y ago
A lot of the "plastic" is cellophane which is more or less chemically purified wood and decomposes. We have a problem with disposable containers but I think the attack on grocery store packaging materials misses the point.
- cto_of_antifa 5y ago
  cellophane has largely been replaced my ldpe
- janekm 5y ago
  A lot of what is commonly called cellophane is sadly not actual cellophane (actual cellophane is kind of crinkly, like old-fashioned clear candy bags). It's been replaced by polypropylene in most use cases as far as I can tell.
admissionsguy 5y ago
Trash itself does not have to be a problem. Just stop putting it in the ocean.
dcjdudud 5y ago
No one wants to use glass jars from home and most people think you're strange for favoring such an inconvenient idea so readily. Plastics didn't need to push disposables that hard, they were already better.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  > No one wants to use glass jars I do. So do many others. Moreover people want what is pushed on them (aka marketing/public relations works). > Plastics didn't need to push disposables that hard Funny because they did push them hard. Tough to say how things would have gone if they hadn’t. > they were already better. Better in some ways, worse in others. At first it may have seemed like a good idea, but at this point we need to find ways to reduce plastic use.
madacol 5y ago
Re-used containers means reduced food-life after buying it or more preservatives, and higher chance of contamination. That will increase probability of food-poison. More wastage, more food needs to be produced, more environmental impact On the topic of reusing bags, I wish it were as simple as stopping using single-use plastic bags. The most "environmental-friendly" alternative seems to be reusable-bags made of polyester PET(recycled), but you still have to reuse them on average more than ~35 times in order to have less environmental impact. graph: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental-impact https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental... more info: https://ourworldindata.org/faq-on-plastics#are-plastic-alternatives-better-for-the-environment https://ourworldindata.org/faq-on-plastics#are-plastic-alter... "In fact, studies have shown that when we compare environmental impacts such as greenhouse gas emissions, energy, water and resource use, plastic packaging tends to have a net positive impact. The impact of plastic production and handling is lower than the impacts which would result from food waste without packaging."
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  Similar situation when ditching plastic or composites for glass bottles. You need a large number of reuses of the glass container (break-even at around 30-50 reuses) or you will actually end up with a net increase in emissions. Recycling glass should be a last resort, as it requires a lot of energy (compared to e.g. recycling PET bottles). Because glass is so much heavier than plastic packaging, transport distances also need to be kept low (good in general). If transport distance exceeds something like 500 km, a glass bottle will always result in higher net emissions than a tetra pack, even if reused a billion times.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    But it's not just about emissions. Throw glass in a hedge, and it's pretty inert: a shiny rock. Throw plastic in a hedge, and it'll drift and get stuck around something, or get eaten by something that really shouldn't be eating it, or break up into tiny pieces and poison the entire food chain… likely all three, and more.

stickfigure 5y ago

I've travelled a fair bit in the "non-west" and they use the same packaging everyone else does.

deadalus 5y ago
It is well known that Americans consume far more natural resources and live much less sustainably than people from any other large country of the world. “A child born in the United States will create thirteen times as much ecological damage over the course of his or her lifetime than a child born in Brazil,” reports the Sierra Club’s Dave Tilford, adding that the average American will drain as many resources as 35 natives of India and consume 53 times more goods and services than someone from China. Source : https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-consumption/ https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-c...
- SilverRed 5y ago
  Its also somewhat of a "lead by example" situation. Those most capable of implementing solutions should implement every solution they have and show how it can be done and then the rest of the world will follow or at least feel the pressure. Rather than rich countries with citizens living the most resource intensive lifestyles possible judging people in poverty for not having better than first world waste treatment.
  - crubier 5y ago
    I really think that the « lead by example » thing is understated. Developed countries leading by example and demonstrating that sustainable development is profitable and successful is the only way to transform the current situation into a future in which the « polluting stage of development » is understood as being only a transient phase of development and not an end state.
- christophilus 5y ago
  As a father of three American kids, I see this first hand. I read (I think it was in Minimalist Parenting) that the average American kid has something like 40x the number of toys of the Average kid from a developing country. Dunno if it’s true, but I think it’s in the right ballpark. My wife and I have tried to minimize waste. We generally buy used, etc. We have also tried to buy mostly non-plastic toys. But man, is it an uphill battle. People just love to give us random stuff. For example, my dad rants about “Cheap Chinese crap”, but then turns around and buys my kids “Cheap Chinese crap” even after I’ve made it clear that I want less clutter in our lives. There is a constant pressure on American parents to give their kids toys / experiences / entertainment. It comes from observing the frenetic activity of other parents, from targeted ads, from everywhere. But the fact is, kids just need to have a childhood. They don’t need their days stuffed with scheduled activities, the latest toys, etc. Just idle time, imagination, and quality attention from loving parents (Just a little attention everyday goes a long way.) /rant Anyway, advice on how to exit the American way is very much welcome.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Ask for books. Tell your family that your children have enough toys, but what they're really missing out on is stories and games to play, and knowledge about the world. Maybe throw in a “computer games and internet are bad” if you think it'll fit your target audience.
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    The number of toys or things is a misleading metric. I have a toddler, and she has likely has 50x the number of toys, but 99% of them are recycled gifts that were handed off to us, or obtained through groups like our local BuyNothing, or from neighbors. Her book collection of children's books, and sing-along books is pretty astounding, but we didn't buy a single one. Much of our toddler clothes, and baby clothes was likewise donated to us from local families that outgrew them, as fast growing children can wear smaller sizes for just a few months. When all of our kids have outgrown them, we plan on sharing them likewise.
  - shaftway 5y ago
    > Anyway, advice on how to exit the American way is very much welcome. We've made a big deal about giving the kids "experience gifts". Sometimes it's lessons (my daughter got a week at a horseback riding camp, my son got dirt bike lessons). Sometimes it's a trip (we've taken the kids on 3 separate cross-country road trips with tons of stops at national parks). Sometimes it's a pass to a water park or minigolf place. The kids get involved in the experience they want, so they're emotionally invested and it doesn't feel forced for them. The only rule really is that the thing can't be about electronics (i.e. no going to a video arcade). Once we established that, we asked that grandparents do the same. Usually this is each set of grandparents taking the kids for a week or more in the summer, but they get creative sometimes. It's been four years and the kids are much happier with this than the random junk, and have said so.
yc12340 5y ago
The "non-west" countries are forced to regularly buy bespoke amount of US goods as official tribute to their suzerain [1]. Other countries might not have much better packaging policies, but if you want a war on plastic waste, US and Europe are some of best places to start it. 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/22/china-failed-to-buy-agreed-amounts-of-us-goods-in-phase-one-trade-deal-data.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/22/china-failed-to-buy-agreed-a...
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  The best recycling countries are found in Europe.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Reduce, re-use, and only then recycle.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Which one does the US do better?

imacerealkiller 5y ago

On the topic of bulk grocery shops, it would be really great if more people shop there (I’m in Vienna and we have a few but they’re struggling) but realistically, i don’t think the general crowd is ready to make such a drastic lifestyle change.I would be happy enough if supermarkets at least try and encourage people to go for the packaging free option, or provide incentives in this regard. It’s ridiculous and nonsensical that they charge more for you to buy your groceries loose aka without packaging. It’s like they’re punishing you for not going for the packet of 6 Granny Smith apples all wrapped in plastic and cardboard.

Talanes 5y ago
>It’s like they’re punishing you for not going for the packet of 6 Granny Smith apples all wrapped in plastic and cardboard. I've always run on the gut assumption that they must be putting the worst apples that still look appealing into those packages.
- imacerealkiller 5y ago
  Hahaha I'm sure somewhere out there, someone's opened a packaging and turned the apple around to find it all brown and disgusting on the other concealed side!
- fian 5y ago
  The packaging has a barcode so it can be scanned faster at a checkout. Faster scanning means less checkouts and staff which means lower capital and operating costs.
  - herbst 5y ago
    In central Europe we weight our Vegs and fruits ourselfs and apply a bar code to whatever bag in the majority of super markets. I sometimes collect these codes on my hand and just put all the Vegs in a cloth bag.
    - imacerealkiller 5y ago

ornornor 5y ago

Meanwhile, nearly every possible vegetable and fruit is wrapped in plastic when bought at a supermarket in Switzerland. It’s infuriating. They have their own skin and are sold by weight. Why do we need to wrap them in plastic??

swiley 5y ago

A lot of the "plastic" is cellophane which is more or less chemically purified wood and decomposes. We have a problem with disposable containers but I think the attack on grocery store packaging materials misses the point.

cto_of_antifa 5y ago
cellophane has largely been replaced my ldpe
janekm 5y ago
A lot of what is commonly called cellophane is sadly not actual cellophane (actual cellophane is kind of crinkly, like old-fashioned clear candy bags). It's been replaced by polypropylene in most use cases as far as I can tell.

admissionsguy 5y ago

Trash itself does not have to be a problem. Just stop putting it in the ocean.

dcjdudud 5y ago

No one wants to use glass jars from home and most people think you're strange for favoring such an inconvenient idea so readily. Plastics didn't need to push disposables that hard, they were already better.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
> No one wants to use glass jars I do. So do many others. Moreover people want what is pushed on them (aka marketing/public relations works). > Plastics didn't need to push disposables that hard Funny because they did push them hard. Tough to say how things would have gone if they hadn’t. > they were already better. Better in some ways, worse in others. At first it may have seemed like a good idea, but at this point we need to find ways to reduce plastic use.

madacol 5y ago

Re-used containers means reduced food-life after buying it or more preservatives, and higher chance of contamination. That will increase probability of food-poison. More wastage, more food needs to be produced, more environmental impact On the topic of reusing bags, I wish it were as simple as stopping using single-use plastic bags. The most "environmental-friendly" alternative seems to be reusable-bags made of polyester PET(recycled), but you still have to reuse them on average more than ~35 times in order to have less environmental impact. graph: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental-impact https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental... more info: https://ourworldindata.org/faq-on-plastics#are-plastic-alternatives-better-for-the-environment https://ourworldindata.org/faq-on-plastics#are-plastic-alter... "In fact, studies have shown that when we compare environmental impacts such as greenhouse gas emissions, energy, water and resource use, plastic packaging tends to have a net positive impact. The impact of plastic production and handling is lower than the impacts which would result from food waste without packaging."

formerly_proven 5y ago
Similar situation when ditching plastic or composites for glass bottles. You need a large number of reuses of the glass container (break-even at around 30-50 reuses) or you will actually end up with a net increase in emissions. Recycling glass should be a last resort, as it requires a lot of energy (compared to e.g. recycling PET bottles). Because glass is so much heavier than plastic packaging, transport distances also need to be kept low (good in general). If transport distance exceeds something like 500 km, a glass bottle will always result in higher net emissions than a tetra pack, even if reused a billion times.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  But it's not just about emissions. Throw glass in a hedge, and it's pretty inert: a shiny rock. Throw plastic in a hedge, and it'll drift and get stuck around something, or get eaten by something that really shouldn't be eating it, or break up into tiny pieces and poison the entire food chain… likely all three, and more.