5 ms·

You cannot say it has "no long-term side effects". also a new flu vaccine is developed every year because influenza viruses naturally mutate quickly, as do any

by ncal 5y ago

You cannot say it has "no long-term side effects". also a new flu vaccine is developed every year because influenza viruses naturally mutate quickly, as do any viruses. Don't just write things that you wish were true.

smt88 5y ago
> You cannot say it has "no long-term side effects" What are the long-term side effects of the vaccine? Or are you saying that you expect us to discover some in the future?
- busymom0 5y ago
  Long term side effects won't be known for 5-10 years, especially as vaccinated people have kids. Reminder of the Thalidomide drug: > Thalidomide is a sedative drug discovered at the end of the 50s, which caused a worldwide tragedy. The drug has been prescribed to many pregnant women in order to relieve pregnancy nausea. It was later found that thalidomide caused irreversible damages to the fetus and thousands of children were born with severe congenital malformations. Many of them did not survive more than a few days after they were born. https://thalidomide.ca/en/the-canadian-tragedy/ https://thalidomide.ca/en/the-canadian-tragedy/
  - smt88 5y ago
    > Long term side effects won't be known for 5-10 years, especially as vaccinated people have kids. Good news, then. Viral vector vaccines (like the J&J version) have been studied and tested since the 1970s, and mRNA vaccines (like Pfizer) have been studied since the 1980s[1][2]. What ingredient in Covid vaccines do you suspect will become the new thalidomide? We know that the actual viral vector and mRNA components of the vaccines will degrade and disappear from the body in the short term[3], so it must be one of the other ingredients, right? It's also important to weigh the completely unknown long-term effects of Covid against the well-known long-term effects of training an immune system with a vaccine. 1. https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19... 2. https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccine-safety https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga... 3. https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-sp...
    - AuryGlenz 5y ago
      We know that the spike protein itself causes damage. For adults that’s almost never an issue, but I feel like the overarching recommendation that pregnant women get the vaccine is misguided. It doesn’t make much sense to get it if they’ve already had COVID or are still working from home. If those aren’t true then the risk is probably worth it as a raging infection would almost certainly be worse for the baby. I just wish there was some nuance in our government’s recommendations.
      - smt88 5y ago
        The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage. Please cite a reputable source. The claim that the spike protein is dangerous in and of itself is a fixture of anti-vax disinformation online. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/08/fact-check-proteins-covid-19-vaccines-arent-dangerous-toxins/7505236002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/08/fac...
        dTal 5y ago
        I fear there is a very common phenomenon nowadays - especially in the world of covid - where the wrong people say something for the wrong reasons, which makes right thinking people automatically dismiss it. It's a trap and we shouldn't fall into it. You can't say "The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage". That's going too far. Speaking as someone who doesn't pay attention to whatever the conspiracy theory of the day is, I have nevertheless always wondered about the effect of of proteins in the blood whose sole purpose is to breach cell walls. Your comment motivated me to do a quick google. There are in fact many reputable papers hinting at unpredictable spike protein effects. Here's three: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Induces Degradation of Junctional Proteins That Maintain Endothelial Barrier Integrity [0] The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein alters barrier function in 2D static and 3D microfluidic in-vitro models of the human blood–brain barrier [1] SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins disrupt the blood-brain barrier, new research shows [2] [0] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcvm.2021.687783/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcvm.2021.68778... [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096999612030406X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096999612... [2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201029141941.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201029141941.h...
- velcii 5y ago
  We don't really know because the even the phase 2 trials for these vaccines have not been done..
  - the_dune_13 5y ago
    How come there are phase 3 results of Moderna? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2035389 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2035389
    - velcii 5y ago
      Try and see if you can find data for the phase 2 trials..
- bsaul 5y ago
  when planning on injecting a new type of product to 100% of a (healthy) population you better be sure about what you're doing... Biology "certitude" is far from being as strong as a mathematical proof. Humans are different, and the complexity of interaction inside a single body are horribly complex. I'm very surprised decades of science fiction litterature isn't enough to make people think twice.
  - smt88 5y ago
    They only need to be certain that the risk of the vaccine for the individual is lower than the risk of Covid for that same person. In what way do you think millions of doctors, disease experts, and drug researchers have gotten that wrong? They have evidence that Covid is worse, but where is evidence to the contrary? > I'm very surprised decades of science fiction litterature isn't enough to make people think twice. Isn't it arrogant to assume that all the experts on vaccines are less informed or less cautious than you are, just because you've read sci-fi? They didn't just think twice. They've done decades of research and testing, and they've closely monitored safety at every stage of rollout.
    - bsaul 5y ago
      i don't know a lot of doctor that advocate for the benefit of a covid vaccine for young kids. when they do it's usually in the hope of herd immunity, which seems disproved by the variants cases in countries with hugh vaccination rate. in general i would also be very skeptical of "scientific consensus" related by the media when you see how much bad press some doctor got for criticising public health politics (even when proved right later on).
rsfern 5y ago
It seems unlikely at this point that there are unforeseen long term side effects. Historically vaccine side effects have emerged within a few weeks to months of vaccination [0]. I’m not personally ruling it out 100%, but is there even a proposed mechanism through which vaccine side effects could emerge like years later? [0]: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/vaccines-are-highly-unlikely-to-cause-side-effects-long-after-getting-the-shot- https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/vaccines-...

by ncal 5y ago

smt88 5y ago

> You cannot say it has "no long-term side effects" What are the long-term side effects of the vaccine? Or are you saying that you expect us to discover some in the future?

busymom0 5y ago
Long term side effects won't be known for 5-10 years, especially as vaccinated people have kids. Reminder of the Thalidomide drug: > Thalidomide is a sedative drug discovered at the end of the 50s, which caused a worldwide tragedy. The drug has been prescribed to many pregnant women in order to relieve pregnancy nausea. It was later found that thalidomide caused irreversible damages to the fetus and thousands of children were born with severe congenital malformations. Many of them did not survive more than a few days after they were born. https://thalidomide.ca/en/the-canadian-tragedy/ https://thalidomide.ca/en/the-canadian-tragedy/
- smt88 5y ago
  > Long term side effects won't be known for 5-10 years, especially as vaccinated people have kids. Good news, then. Viral vector vaccines (like the J&J version) have been studied and tested since the 1970s, and mRNA vaccines (like Pfizer) have been studied since the 1980s[1][2]. What ingredient in Covid vaccines do you suspect will become the new thalidomide? We know that the actual viral vector and mRNA components of the vaccines will degrade and disappear from the body in the short term[3], so it must be one of the other ingredients, right? It's also important to weigh the completely unknown long-term effects of Covid against the well-known long-term effects of training an immune system with a vaccine. 1. https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19... 2. https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccine-safety https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga... 3. https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-sp...
  - AuryGlenz 5y ago
    We know that the spike protein itself causes damage. For adults that’s almost never an issue, but I feel like the overarching recommendation that pregnant women get the vaccine is misguided. It doesn’t make much sense to get it if they’ve already had COVID or are still working from home. If those aren’t true then the risk is probably worth it as a raging infection would almost certainly be worse for the baby. I just wish there was some nuance in our government’s recommendations.
    - smt88 5y ago
      The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage. Please cite a reputable source. The claim that the spike protein is dangerous in and of itself is a fixture of anti-vax disinformation online. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/08/fact-check-proteins-covid-19-vaccines-arent-dangerous-toxins/7505236002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/08/fac...
      - dTal 5y ago
        I fear there is a very common phenomenon nowadays - especially in the world of covid - where the wrong people say something for the wrong reasons, which makes right thinking people automatically dismiss it. It's a trap and we shouldn't fall into it. You can't say "The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage". That's going too far. Speaking as someone who doesn't pay attention to whatever the conspiracy theory of the day is, I have nevertheless always wondered about the effect of of proteins in the blood whose sole purpose is to breach cell walls. Your comment motivated me to do a quick google. There are in fact many reputable papers hinting at unpredictable spike protein effects. Here's three: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Induces Degradation of Junctional Proteins That Maintain Endothelial Barrier Integrity [0] The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein alters barrier function in 2D static and 3D microfluidic in-vitro models of the human blood–brain barrier [1] SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins disrupt the blood-brain barrier, new research shows [2] [0] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcvm.2021.687783/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcvm.2021.68778... [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096999612030406X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096999612... [2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201029141941.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201029141941.h...
velcii 5y ago
We don't really know because the even the phase 2 trials for these vaccines have not been done..
- the_dune_13 5y ago
  How come there are phase 3 results of Moderna? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2035389 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2035389
  - velcii 5y ago
    Try and see if you can find data for the phase 2 trials..
bsaul 5y ago
when planning on injecting a new type of product to 100% of a (healthy) population you better be sure about what you're doing... Biology "certitude" is far from being as strong as a mathematical proof. Humans are different, and the complexity of interaction inside a single body are horribly complex. I'm very surprised decades of science fiction litterature isn't enough to make people think twice.
- smt88 5y ago
  They only need to be certain that the risk of the vaccine for the individual is lower than the risk of Covid for that same person. In what way do you think millions of doctors, disease experts, and drug researchers have gotten that wrong? They have evidence that Covid is worse, but where is evidence to the contrary? > I'm very surprised decades of science fiction litterature isn't enough to make people think twice. Isn't it arrogant to assume that all the experts on vaccines are less informed or less cautious than you are, just because you've read sci-fi? They didn't just think twice. They've done decades of research and testing, and they've closely monitored safety at every stage of rollout.
  - bsaul 5y ago
    i don't know a lot of doctor that advocate for the benefit of a covid vaccine for young kids. when they do it's usually in the hope of herd immunity, which seems disproved by the variants cases in countries with hugh vaccination rate. in general i would also be very skeptical of "scientific consensus" related by the media when you see how much bad press some doctor got for criticising public health politics (even when proved right later on).

rsfern 5y ago

It seems unlikely at this point that there are unforeseen long term side effects. Historically vaccine side effects have emerged within a few weeks to months of vaccination [0]. I’m not personally ruling it out 100%, but is there even a proposed mechanism through which vaccine side effects could emerge like years later? [0]: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/vaccines-are-highly-unlikely-to-cause-side-effects-long-after-getting-the-shot- https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/vaccines-...