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What an absurd article. The only thing to learn from Afghanistan is that we never should have gone there to begin with. The author paints a quite ignorant narra

What an absurd article. The only thing to learn from Afghanistan is that we never should have gone there to begin with. The author paints a quite ignorant narrative about the collapse of Afghanistan’s government being somehow the fault of modern day progressivism when the reality is that all of this was started by neocons 20 years ago who had 0 interest in helping the people there and were only in it to line the pockets of defense contractors and oil companies. The mistake was already made we are just now living through the consequences of our collective delusion called the War On Terror.

drivingmenuts 5y ago
The real goal in Afghanistan was achieved by a bunch of SEALs who executed Osama bin Laden. The rest of the armed forces pretty much were just wasted lives, wasted equipment and wasted money by politicians. I hope the lesson here will be to stop fucking around where we’re not wanted. But that’s pretty much our other national motto.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dragontamer 5y ago
  We gave them cellphones and modern life. Their girls were allowed into schools thanks to our troops, and their women entered US-chartered universities with the hopes and dreams of becoming productive adults. This is all likely lost as the Taliban takes over again, but I don't think providing that dream was worthless (however fleeting it was for those people, I know we've changed their lives for the better).
  - abvdasker 5y ago
    Yeah I’m sure that the families of the tens of thousands of dead Afghan civilians are super grateful to America that they now have smartphones!
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      You jest, but some of the Taliban's actions have been to take those cell phones and smash them. Girls are to be illiterate, they shouldn't use phones. Even boys aren't supposed to be listening to music, and the modern cell phone gives the boys easy access to music. Some of the first actions of the Taliban in these new government centers has been to take over the radio stations and stop playing music. Its happening already. We gave them a society where they can enjoy music, culture, and attempt to gain literacy and education. It didn't last, but its clearly an improvement over the 90s-era Taliban. Whether the people remember that moving forward will be another question. ---------- We pushed too many of our values upon the Afghan citizens. We were pushing for literacy, women's rights, democracy. But they would have been satisfied with far, far less (and having fewer moral qualms would have allowed us to ally up with more of the warlords who were in fact, competent, at security. Unlike the paper-soldiers we assembled). But I don't think any of our values are in the wrong. It may be only temporary, but I assume the citizens will remember the difference in life one way or the other.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - abvdasker 5y ago
        > We gave them a society where they can enjoy music, culture, and attempt to gain literacy and education. It didn't last, but its clearly an improvement over the 90s-era Taliban. Whether the people remember that moving forward will be another question. This is an absurd fantasy that has no relation to the reality in that country.
        dragontamer 5y ago
        What fantasy? The Taliban are already issuing cell-phone bans and bans of music. Those things were allowed in the US-sponsored regime. https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/08/13/smartphone-bans-unnerving-surveillance-afghans-reveal-life-under-spreading-taliban-rule/ https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/08/13/smartphone-bans-... > “If single girls are found using smartphones, they are questioned over the possibility of having a relationship with a boy,” said Ansari, who declined to provide her last name out of fear of retribution. “If boys listen to songs, their memory cards are smashed by the Taliban.” Girls having a relationship with a boy is punishable by death in the Taliban regime. Its a serious threat. --------- The music-ban was a key attribute of 90s-era Taliban (among with other forms of cultural repression: they were destroying museums, libraries, and statues). When the USA invaded, we allowed them to play music again (among other rights). Literally giving the gift of music back to the people. Unfortunately, it was temporary and the Taliban are taking back over. But there's no "fantasy" about my assessment here, that's the ground truth to what we did at a literal level.
Overton-Window 5y ago
It's not that we left Afghanistan. It's the grossly incompetent way we left it.
- abvdasker 5y ago
  There was no right way. Anyone who thinks a different outcome was possible should watch the Vice documentary “This is What Winning Looks Like”. The Taliban was going to take over no matter what we did. If we couldn’t create a stable government in 20 years and hundreds of billions of dollars then it simply wasn’t possible. It was probably never possible. The only alternative was to do what Obama and Trump did which is to kick the can further down the road at the cost of more American lives and dollars. The Biden admin absolutely did the right thing and the best that can be done now is to accept refugees.

drivingmenuts 5y ago

The real goal in Afghanistan was achieved by a bunch of SEALs who executed Osama bin Laden. The rest of the armed forces pretty much were just wasted lives, wasted equipment and wasted money by politicians. I hope the lesson here will be to stop fucking around where we’re not wanted. But that’s pretty much our other national motto.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dragontamer 5y ago
We gave them cellphones and modern life. Their girls were allowed into schools thanks to our troops, and their women entered US-chartered universities with the hopes and dreams of becoming productive adults. This is all likely lost as the Taliban takes over again, but I don't think providing that dream was worthless (however fleeting it was for those people, I know we've changed their lives for the better).
- abvdasker 5y ago
  Yeah I’m sure that the families of the tens of thousands of dead Afghan civilians are super grateful to America that they now have smartphones!
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    You jest, but some of the Taliban's actions have been to take those cell phones and smash them. Girls are to be illiterate, they shouldn't use phones. Even boys aren't supposed to be listening to music, and the modern cell phone gives the boys easy access to music. Some of the first actions of the Taliban in these new government centers has been to take over the radio stations and stop playing music. Its happening already. We gave them a society where they can enjoy music, culture, and attempt to gain literacy and education. It didn't last, but its clearly an improvement over the 90s-era Taliban. Whether the people remember that moving forward will be another question. ---------- We pushed too many of our values upon the Afghan citizens. We were pushing for literacy, women's rights, democracy. But they would have been satisfied with far, far less (and having fewer moral qualms would have allowed us to ally up with more of the warlords who were in fact, competent, at security. Unlike the paper-soldiers we assembled). But I don't think any of our values are in the wrong. It may be only temporary, but I assume the citizens will remember the difference in life one way or the other.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - abvdasker 5y ago
      > We gave them a society where they can enjoy music, culture, and attempt to gain literacy and education. It didn't last, but its clearly an improvement over the 90s-era Taliban. Whether the people remember that moving forward will be another question. This is an absurd fantasy that has no relation to the reality in that country.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        What fantasy? The Taliban are already issuing cell-phone bans and bans of music. Those things were allowed in the US-sponsored regime. https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/08/13/smartphone-bans-unnerving-surveillance-afghans-reveal-life-under-spreading-taliban-rule/ https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/08/13/smartphone-bans-... > “If single girls are found using smartphones, they are questioned over the possibility of having a relationship with a boy,” said Ansari, who declined to provide her last name out of fear of retribution. “If boys listen to songs, their memory cards are smashed by the Taliban.” Girls having a relationship with a boy is punishable by death in the Taliban regime. Its a serious threat. --------- The music-ban was a key attribute of 90s-era Taliban (among with other forms of cultural repression: they were destroying museums, libraries, and statues). When the USA invaded, we allowed them to play music again (among other rights). Literally giving the gift of music back to the people. Unfortunately, it was temporary and the Taliban are taking back over. But there's no "fantasy" about my assessment here, that's the ground truth to what we did at a literal level.

Overton-Window 5y ago

It's not that we left Afghanistan. It's the grossly incompetent way we left it.

abvdasker 5y ago
There was no right way. Anyone who thinks a different outcome was possible should watch the Vice documentary “This is What Winning Looks Like”. The Taliban was going to take over no matter what we did. If we couldn’t create a stable government in 20 years and hundreds of billions of dollars then it simply wasn’t possible. It was probably never possible. The only alternative was to do what Obama and Trump did which is to kick the can further down the road at the cost of more American lives and dollars. The Biden admin absolutely did the right thing and the best that can be done now is to accept refugees.