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It’s such a “perfect” circle of non-communication that benefits only the fruit company, isn’t it? - Can I update my app inside your store? Fruit company: No.

It’s such a “perfect” circle of non-communication that benefits only the fruit company, isn’t it? - Can I update my app inside your store? Fruit company: No. - Can I find out why? Fruit company: No. - Can I find out who or what makes this decision? Fruit company: No. - Can I update my app outside your store? Fruit company: No. - Can I contact my customers? Fruit company: No. - Can I even identify my customers in order to help them? Fruit company: No. - Can I directly give my own customers a refund? Fruit company: No. - Can I be removed from your list of featured apps? Fruit company: No. - Can customers prevent this one app from being auto-updated into brokenness? Fruit company: No. - Can you tell customers that this new brokenness is your fault and not the developer’s? Fruit company: No. And on, and on, and on, and on. This is a completely absurd system that has never, ever, ever benefited customers or developers nearly as much as fruit companies. Congress can’t act soon enough.

cageface 5y ago
Don’t forget - can I use common PWA features to build my app on the web instead? No because Apple doesn’t allow that either.
IlliOnato 5y ago
https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675 https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675 seems to be relevant
donmcronald 5y ago
It's such a nasty side effect of demand aggregation platforms which is what everyone has been trying to build for the last decade+. It's a real prisoner's dilemma too. Earlier adopting developers get to be "fart app millionaires", but there's a definite tipping point where the supply side becomes commoditized. I think Ballmer got unfairly criticized for laughing at the iPhone. I always thought he looked at it and thought it was such a ridiculously bad deal for both developers and users that no one would adopt it. His biggest mistake was underestimating the ability for people to act in their own long term self interest.
- cglace 5y ago
  Please tell me which option we had that was “in our interest”.
  - Enginerrrd 5y ago
    Blackberry started smartphones with the user having root by default. iphone changed that and people were perfectly ok with a sudden paradigm shift.
    - mananaysiempre 5y ago
      Blackberry really gave you root? Huh. Symbian S60, which was an attempt at a Blackberry clone as far as I understand it, had a mandatory app signing policy (but no app repository or review, just a rent on developers).
- ucosty 5y ago
  That's a very charitable take on Ballmer's reaction. The Windows mobile platform may have been more hackable, but from an end user's perspective it was pretty awful.
  - philliphaydon 5y ago
    Windows Phone is still the best mobile OS. I really miss it.
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      Windows Phone came three years after the iPhone. At the time of Balmers rant it was Windows CE, which was crap.
      - philliphaydon 5y ago
        OH ok in that case I agree.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SuckMyJohnson 5y ago
Hey man, suck my Johnson.
lucb1e 5y ago
And yet people keep buying it. It's not like there aren't alternatives. I just don't get it.
- Marsymars 5y ago
  The alternatives aren't very good. Was recently looking at Android options, and of the three things I care about, and which I don't feel are a particularly high bar (1. Non-huge phone. 2. Close-to-stock OS. 3. Good update policy.), as of the next set of Pixel devices (which are all growing bigger), it looks like a "pick two" situation. (ZenFone 8 is small and close-to stock, Pixel 6 is stock with good updates, Galaxy S21 is small with good updates.)
  - robocat 5y ago
    > Close-to-stock OS, Good update policy. Also look at phones with Android One. Although in 2021 only Nokia is delivering phones for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_One#2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_One#2021
    - Marsymars 5y ago
      My current daily driver is actually a G7 One from 2018 - it's still getting updates, but probably not for much longer. Sadly, it looks like any Android One phone from 2020 or 2021 would be both slower and larger than my G7 One.
- dt2m 5y ago
  another possible reason might be due to iMessage being de facto messaging platform in the US, amplified by the societal pressure to not have "green bubbles". add to this the fact that video recording on Android has a horrible rep for being blurry and blocky, staining the reputation further. the time has come for legal action against Apple. this is textbook early-2000s MS behavior.
- llukas 5y ago
  Most of issues are developer only. Maybe that's why? As an user I'd prefer to interact with larger company that is not going anywhere rather than each developer separately. This has downsides as described in grandparent post but also increases trust a bit for unknown developers.
ksec 5y ago
I think I need to point out, it isn't your customer. Apple have been very explicit in all of their public communication and in court. They are Apple's customers. Apple's customer are trusting Apple and App Store to use your App. And Apple is sharing 70% of revenue to you and they only keep 30%. While I have lots of things I disagree with DHH, his point on App Store were spot on. It wasn't just about the commission, It was the company Basecamp has no relationship with its customers signing up via iOS. It only has it with Apple. And that is not how a business should work.
- kuschkufan 5y ago
  - Can my users become customers of mine? Fruit company: No

cageface 5y ago

Don’t forget - can I use common PWA features to build my app on the web instead? No because Apple doesn’t allow that either.

IlliOnato 5y ago

https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675 https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675 seems to be relevant

donmcronald 5y ago

It's such a nasty side effect of demand aggregation platforms which is what everyone has been trying to build for the last decade+. It's a real prisoner's dilemma too. Earlier adopting developers get to be "fart app millionaires", but there's a definite tipping point where the supply side becomes commoditized. I think Ballmer got unfairly criticized for laughing at the iPhone. I always thought he looked at it and thought it was such a ridiculously bad deal for both developers and users that no one would adopt it. His biggest mistake was underestimating the ability for people to act in their own long term self interest.

cglace 5y ago
Please tell me which option we had that was “in our interest”.
- Enginerrrd 5y ago
  Blackberry started smartphones with the user having root by default. iphone changed that and people were perfectly ok with a sudden paradigm shift.
  - mananaysiempre 5y ago
    Blackberry really gave you root? Huh. Symbian S60, which was an attempt at a Blackberry clone as far as I understand it, had a mandatory app signing policy (but no app repository or review, just a rent on developers).
ucosty 5y ago
That's a very charitable take on Ballmer's reaction. The Windows mobile platform may have been more hackable, but from an end user's perspective it was pretty awful.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  Windows Phone is still the best mobile OS. I really miss it.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Windows Phone came three years after the iPhone. At the time of Balmers rant it was Windows CE, which was crap.
    - philliphaydon 5y ago
      OH ok in that case I agree.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

SuckMyJohnson 5y ago

Hey man, suck my Johnson.

lucb1e 5y ago

And yet people keep buying it. It's not like there aren't alternatives. I just don't get it.

Marsymars 5y ago
The alternatives aren't very good. Was recently looking at Android options, and of the three things I care about, and which I don't feel are a particularly high bar (1. Non-huge phone. 2. Close-to-stock OS. 3. Good update policy.), as of the next set of Pixel devices (which are all growing bigger), it looks like a "pick two" situation. (ZenFone 8 is small and close-to stock, Pixel 6 is stock with good updates, Galaxy S21 is small with good updates.)
- robocat 5y ago
  > Close-to-stock OS, Good update policy. Also look at phones with Android One. Although in 2021 only Nokia is delivering phones for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_One#2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_One#2021
  - Marsymars 5y ago
    My current daily driver is actually a G7 One from 2018 - it's still getting updates, but probably not for much longer. Sadly, it looks like any Android One phone from 2020 or 2021 would be both slower and larger than my G7 One.
dt2m 5y ago
another possible reason might be due to iMessage being de facto messaging platform in the US, amplified by the societal pressure to not have "green bubbles". add to this the fact that video recording on Android has a horrible rep for being blurry and blocky, staining the reputation further. the time has come for legal action against Apple. this is textbook early-2000s MS behavior.
llukas 5y ago
Most of issues are developer only. Maybe that's why? As an user I'd prefer to interact with larger company that is not going anywhere rather than each developer separately. This has downsides as described in grandparent post but also increases trust a bit for unknown developers.

ksec 5y ago

I think I need to point out, it isn't your customer. Apple have been very explicit in all of their public communication and in court. They are Apple's customers. Apple's customer are trusting Apple and App Store to use your App. And Apple is sharing 70% of revenue to you and they only keep 30%. While I have lots of things I disagree with DHH, his point on App Store were spot on. It wasn't just about the commission, It was the company Basecamp has no relationship with its customers signing up via iOS. It only has it with Apple. And that is not how a business should work.

kuschkufan 5y ago
- Can my users become customers of mine? Fruit company: No