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I wonder what it is about hacker news that brings out this incessant negativity in people. Have you considered that: - This product might only be a couple of m

I wonder what it is about hacker news that brings out this incessant negativity in people. Have you considered that: - This product might only be a couple of months old and they have bigger plans for it over the next year? - The founders don't have all the answers and they're learning just as much as we are right now? - Even though YOU might not see enough value to warrant the price tag, there might be people (or businesses) who do? Maybe you just can't empathize because you haven't build something from 0 -> 1 yet. I am the same age as you but I have failed building a couple of things before, where it looks like you have had a bunch of jobs. I don't cast scorn on people who are early on building things, because I've been in their shoes. Maybe you're right and there's nothing here. Or maybe in two years, their browser is miles ahead of the extension you're referring to. > tell me one thing that this browser achieves that isn't already available through free, open-source, trustworthy extensions whose code I can see and audit. They don't have to tell you anything. Go use your browser extension. You aren't the market.

smoldesu 5y ago
Maybe they shouldn't charge $15/month for a product that's incomplete. The only reason I'm not the target audience here is because I won't use a subscription-based browser, much less one that has fewer features than my current browser. I respect people who build software, but you have to get pricing right if you want people to care. > I wonder what it is about hacker news that brings out this incessant negativity in people. It's an incubator site. We're here to offer our advice on upcoming products, and many people post their products explicitly to hear what they might be doing wrong. It's a trial-by-fire, but rapid iteration will almost always yield a better product.
- csilverman 5y ago
  Agreed. The subscription pricing model alone is an instant disqualifier. $15 for a one-time purchase? I'd absolutely consider it. $15/month? Never.
  - etothepii 5y ago
    The comparison of one time vs subscription wouldn't be $15 vs $15 but more like $500 vs $15.
    - gruez 5y ago
      In what world is a browser worth $500? For comparison, a complete operating system (eg. windows) has cost around $200, and this was applicable even in windows 98 days, before microsoft was trying to monetize it using ads/telemetry.
      - xrisk 5y ago
        Probably more like $5000. Have you considered how insanely complicated browsers are? It’s a miracle they’re free.
        gruez 5y ago
        Well the reality is that there are two browser engines that are free and open source. If they built their own that was better than the incumbents (eg. from performance/privacy point of view), then I might consider it. But I'm not paying $5000 for a chrome reskin, just like I won't pay $5000 for a debian reskin.
        xrisk 5y ago
        I’m saying it’s a miracle that Chrome/FF is free.
        djrogers 5y ago
        3 - Chromium/Blink, Webkit, and Firefox.
        bdcravens 5y ago
        Not a miracle. Just Google.
      - etothepii 5y ago
- codetrotter 5y ago
  > Maybe they shouldn't charge $15/month for a product that's incomplete How do you expect them to ever finish the browser if they don't have any income from working on it?
  - throwaway1777 5y ago
    Let me tell you about a thing called Ycombinator. They help you raise this thing called venture capital for exactly this purpose…
    - somebodythere 5y ago
      Investors like to see revenue, when they are looking to make an investment.
      - codetrotter 5y ago
        That’s what I’m thinking too. But my experience with investors is very limited so far. The investor in the startup that me and a couple of others founded agreed to contribute funds (in exchange for ownership of a percentage of the company), but in our case the condition was that these funds are for things like marketing and other expenses, and not for paying salaries to ourselves. So until our company is making a profit we are not getting paid a salary at all. But I don’t know if this is actually common or not, and how for example Silicon Valley is with regards to this compared to our geographical location.
  - asimpletune 5y ago
    That’s what investors are for, ostensibly, no? Another way to phrase this is how can you expect people to buy something at a price below it’s value? Actually, haha, I just realized there’s an answer. Because they’ll expense it at work.
  - bdcravens 5y ago
    No matter what the industry or the product is, that's not the consumer's problem.
- danenania 5y ago
  The problem is that the crew who reflexively post negative comments on Show/Launch HNs are mostly a loud (and smug) but unrepresentative minority with idiosyncratic tastes. Sure, you can learn something from any feedback, but most products would be made worse if the creators took these comments too much to heart, especially when it comes to pricing. That said, you can obviously get a lot of great feedback on HN too! But no one grumbling about $15/mo being too much to pay for X or subscriptions in general being bad is likely to be very helpful.
  - throwawayswede 5y ago
    Almost every Show/Launch HN post that has a slightly abrasive comment (which is not the same thing as negative or nonconstructive) gets a few comments in the same vein from the "people are negative" to the "people are toxic" kinds, which honestly speaking appears way more smug to me.
    - danenania 5y ago
      It's not just about being abrasive. It's about posting negative comments when you have nothing to offer. If your reaction to something new is that you have absolutely no interest or wouldn't pay a few cappuccinos per month for it then guess what: no one cares. You're just polluting the thread with noise. Helpful: this is interesting, but I tried it and it's missing these features that I would need to consider paying for it. Not helpful: subscriptions are the devil!
      - detaro 5y ago
        The comment all this is under is not just "subscriptions are the devil!". Some responses seem more "reflexively negative" (against any criticism) than the comments they respond to. you don't seem to offer much value over free competitors and why should we trust you might be hard points to address, but are important.
        danenania 5y ago
xrisk 5y ago
I don’t see the point of building for the sake of building.
- SkyMarshal 5y ago
  And yet you're on a hacker forum...
throwawayswede 5y ago
Although I party agree with you in terms of tone, positivity for positivity's sake is also bad, if not worse. I saw the previous comment as constructive, although I might not phrase it like that myself, but to each their way. OP posted as Luanch HN to get feedback, not just praise. Previous commentator was not being negative or critical with no reason. Aggressive and baseless anti-toxicity is as bad as real toxic behavior. You're free to "love loving" things, but you can't make others conform to your lifestyle.
- adar 5y ago
  While I agree about not just being positive for the sake of it and this product is certainly not for me, I'm not sure what's constructive about calling something a "cheap ripoff" of something else (what does "cheap" even mean here other than an insult?)
tw04 5y ago
> They don't have to tell you anything. Go use your browser extension. You aren't the market. I'm guessing what he wrote resonates with a vast majority of the HN crowd even if the tone of the message doesn't. The whole point of ShowHN is to get feedback, critical or otherwise. You criticizing his feedback kinds of defeats the entire purpose IMO.

smoldesu 5y ago

Maybe they shouldn't charge $15/month for a product that's incomplete. The only reason I'm not the target audience here is because I won't use a subscription-based browser, much less one that has fewer features than my current browser. I respect people who build software, but you have to get pricing right if you want people to care. > I wonder what it is about hacker news that brings out this incessant negativity in people. It's an incubator site. We're here to offer our advice on upcoming products, and many people post their products explicitly to hear what they might be doing wrong. It's a trial-by-fire, but rapid iteration will almost always yield a better product.

csilverman 5y ago
Agreed. The subscription pricing model alone is an instant disqualifier. $15 for a one-time purchase? I'd absolutely consider it. $15/month? Never.
- etothepii 5y ago
  The comparison of one time vs subscription wouldn't be $15 vs $15 but more like $500 vs $15.
  - gruez 5y ago
    In what world is a browser worth $500? For comparison, a complete operating system (eg. windows) has cost around $200, and this was applicable even in windows 98 days, before microsoft was trying to monetize it using ads/telemetry.
    - xrisk 5y ago
      Probably more like $5000. Have you considered how insanely complicated browsers are? It’s a miracle they’re free.
      - gruez 5y ago
        Well the reality is that there are two browser engines that are free and open source. If they built their own that was better than the incumbents (eg. from performance/privacy point of view), then I might consider it. But I'm not paying $5000 for a chrome reskin, just like I won't pay $5000 for a debian reskin.
        xrisk 5y ago
        I’m saying it’s a miracle that Chrome/FF is free.
        djrogers 5y ago
        3 - Chromium/Blink, Webkit, and Firefox.
      - bdcravens 5y ago
        Not a miracle. Just Google.
    - etothepii 5y ago
codetrotter 5y ago
> Maybe they shouldn't charge $15/month for a product that's incomplete How do you expect them to ever finish the browser if they don't have any income from working on it?
- throwaway1777 5y ago
  Let me tell you about a thing called Ycombinator. They help you raise this thing called venture capital for exactly this purpose…
  - somebodythere 5y ago
    Investors like to see revenue, when they are looking to make an investment.
    - codetrotter 5y ago
      That’s what I’m thinking too. But my experience with investors is very limited so far. The investor in the startup that me and a couple of others founded agreed to contribute funds (in exchange for ownership of a percentage of the company), but in our case the condition was that these funds are for things like marketing and other expenses, and not for paying salaries to ourselves. So until our company is making a profit we are not getting paid a salary at all. But I don’t know if this is actually common or not, and how for example Silicon Valley is with regards to this compared to our geographical location.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  That’s what investors are for, ostensibly, no? Another way to phrase this is how can you expect people to buy something at a price below it’s value? Actually, haha, I just realized there’s an answer. Because they’ll expense it at work.
- bdcravens 5y ago
  No matter what the industry or the product is, that's not the consumer's problem.
danenania 5y ago
The problem is that the crew who reflexively post negative comments on Show/Launch HNs are mostly a loud (and smug) but unrepresentative minority with idiosyncratic tastes. Sure, you can learn something from any feedback, but most products would be made worse if the creators took these comments too much to heart, especially when it comes to pricing. That said, you can obviously get a lot of great feedback on HN too! But no one grumbling about $15/mo being too much to pay for X or subscriptions in general being bad is likely to be very helpful.
- throwawayswede 5y ago
  Almost every Show/Launch HN post that has a slightly abrasive comment (which is not the same thing as negative or nonconstructive) gets a few comments in the same vein from the "people are negative" to the "people are toxic" kinds, which honestly speaking appears way more smug to me.
  - danenania 5y ago
    It's not just about being abrasive. It's about posting negative comments when you have nothing to offer. If your reaction to something new is that you have absolutely no interest or wouldn't pay a few cappuccinos per month for it then guess what: no one cares. You're just polluting the thread with noise. Helpful: this is interesting, but I tried it and it's missing these features that I would need to consider paying for it. Not helpful: subscriptions are the devil!
    - detaro 5y ago
      The comment all this is under is not just "subscriptions are the devil!". Some responses seem more "reflexively negative" (against any criticism) than the comments they respond to. you don't seem to offer much value over free competitors and why should we trust you might be hard points to address, but are important.
      - danenania 5y ago

xrisk 5y ago

I don’t see the point of building for the sake of building.

SkyMarshal 5y ago
And yet you're on a hacker forum...

throwawayswede 5y ago

Although I party agree with you in terms of tone, positivity for positivity's sake is also bad, if not worse. I saw the previous comment as constructive, although I might not phrase it like that myself, but to each their way. OP posted as Luanch HN to get feedback, not just praise. Previous commentator was not being negative or critical with no reason. Aggressive and baseless anti-toxicity is as bad as real toxic behavior. You're free to "love loving" things, but you can't make others conform to your lifestyle.

adar 5y ago
While I agree about not just being positive for the sake of it and this product is certainly not for me, I'm not sure what's constructive about calling something a "cheap ripoff" of something else (what does "cheap" even mean here other than an insult?)

tw04 5y ago

> They don't have to tell you anything. Go use your browser extension. You aren't the market. I'm guessing what he wrote resonates with a vast majority of the HN crowd even if the tone of the message doesn't. The whole point of ShowHN is to get feedback, critical or otherwise. You criticizing his feedback kinds of defeats the entire purpose IMO.