5 ms·

> The 10.1 inch, 3:4 panel has a resolution of 1404×1872 (227 DPI), can display 16 levels of grayscale and is capable of a 60hz refresh rate 60 hz!? This + som

> The 10.1 inch, 3:4 panel has a resolution of 1404×1872 (227 DPI), can display 16 levels of grayscale and is capable of a 60hz refresh rate 60 hz!? This + some paired keyboard + wifi-tethering + SSH (or even a remote session with VS Code!?) would probably be an awesome code-while-in-the-sun-setup. Really excited to see where this ends up.

solarkraft 5y ago
The 60Hz must be a mistake. That type of rate plain isn’t possible with e-ink.
- green7ea 5y ago
  I think so too but if the 60Hz is not a mistake, it will change my life. I hope it's not ;-)
  - DennisAleynikov 5y ago
    at 60hz, an electro phoretic display (EPD) or eink will start to degrade very rapidly and consume more power than even a bright OLED panel will. Eink is efficient only when you are NOT refreshing the screen constantly as it persists the last image drawn to screen, but if you wanna do any kind of scrolling, zooming etc, just use another kind of display tech.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      > degrade very rapidly E-Ink displays were declared having a lifespan of 10 million switches per dot: you would have to do a study about how often the average pixel is changed, but if that value were 5s, the lifespan would be "five years of short week 9-to-5" - that is not bad. I am not sure if A2 mode or Greyscale Update with frequent dot switching is a stress that makes the dots degrade faster (not simply "decrease the life count going towards the max", but "decreasing the max"). I supposed not dramatically.
      - DennisAleynikov 5y ago
        those switches per dot ratings are fair, but another assumption here is that EPD takes a non-0 amount of time to move the ink particles in the fluid they are suspended in with a magnetic field. when you try to move them more than roughly 8-12hz it already uses more power than a normal screen and if you run it at even higher voltages and speeds the ink particles start to burst and lose shape, leading to a greying out of the panel quite rapidly (within a few months)
- spijdar 5y ago
  60Hz for total, full screen refresh would indeed be a staggering feat, however I don't believe that's what these figures are. One of the things that makes e-ink so hard in the first place is the multiple and proprietary algorithms for doing partial paints or clears on the screen in the most time-optimal way. I can only assume the 60Hz figure refers to a partial paint on screen, so "60Hz refresh of the line you're drawing", not "60Hz fullscreen video". That, or it's 60Hz with incredible ghosting, which I believe has been done before.
  - megous 5y ago
    60Hz at that resolution would be ~20 MHz on a 16bit parallel bus (2bits per pixel), which sounds about manageable. The display spec says the display has max 85Hz raw refresh rate. https://files.pine64.org/doc/quartz64/Eink%20P-511-828-V1_ED103TC2%20Formal%20Spec%20V1.0_20190514.pdf https://files.pine64.org/doc/quartz64/Eink%20P-511-828-V1_ED...
    - spijdar 5y ago
      You're correct; another project using this display panel documented their process towards getting it running: https://www.zephray.me/post/archer_bringup_notes https://www.zephray.me/post/archer_bringup_notes They go into some detail on the display and getting it to display a picture, along with some pitfalls. Worth a read for anyone else interested.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    "Multiple and proprietary algorithms"? It's just an ordinary control problem, how hard can it be to come up with an openly-available solution? Ultimately, quality/latency/etc. will be a matter of how much effort the user will put in calibrating the driver to their screen.
    - spijdar 5y ago
      I've not worked in this space, but see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17993174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17993174 and https://www.waveshare.net/w/upload/c/c4/E-paper-mode-declaration.pdf https://www.waveshare.net/w/upload/c/c4/E-paper-mode-declara... for a description of some available display modes within a waveform table, along with a description of the waveform firmware itself: The waveform flash memory file contains temperature look-up tables (LUTs), waveform sequence data, algorithm data, voltage data, controller settings, and manufacturing data. Each AF waveform is specifically adjusted for a particular display module lot. This specification document is for use by E Ink Corporation and their customers under non-disclosure agreements. E Ink Corporation will be responsible for maintaining and controlling specification revisions. To my knowledge, there are very few reverse engineered waveform files or custom controllers for eink displays, and those that exist have inferior display properties compared to the e-ink provided waveform tables.
- slim 5y ago
  I heard 16hz
- megous 5y ago
  eInk displays have 85-90Hz refresh rate. Just look up the datasheets. Though it does not mean the same thing it does for LCD displays. It just means you can stuff raw data to the display at that rate. Pixels are sticky so you're either driving them towards white or black or not at all (individually). And you may need to drive them multiple times (or for different periods of time), to get the correct shade of gray, or whatever. So you still need several full scans to perform what user would think of as a screen update.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Edit, of the first level reply for visibility: Refresh Time: 450ms (from the datasheet) Edit 2: and that value of 450ms must be the Grayscale Update value - A2 surely remains around 125ms. So, a classic EPD. -- It is probably the display of https://shopkits.eink.com/product/10-3%cb%9d-epaper-display-vb3300-kca/ https://shopkits.eink.com/product/10-3%cb%9d-epaper-display-... so, in this case, a classic E-Ink display - not a miracle (where "miracle" may be some technology similar of that of MIT/Taiwan E-Ink, but not quite the same, with some boosted feats but compromises elsewhere).
  - megous 5y ago
    It's ES103TC2 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote#e-ink_Display https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote#e-ink_Display
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      Confirmed, so: https://www.eink.com/product.html?type=productdetail&id=7 https://www.eink.com/product.html?type=productdetail&id=7 Though in the other link I pointed to the ES103TC1 - the differences to the ES103TC2 are not clear. [Minimum] Refresh time - which surely some have mixed with that "60Hz": 450ms
      - megous 5y ago
        That's just some arbitrary number. :) Unless refresh is clearly defined, there's not much point throwing around arbitrary numbers. 450ms may be minimal time for a screen clear + update, just by the looks of it. That is the screen blinking black/white to clear the screen and then painting the final image. That's not something that will be happening all the time...

solarkraft 5y ago

The 60Hz must be a mistake. That type of rate plain isn’t possible with e-ink.

green7ea 5y ago
I think so too but if the 60Hz is not a mistake, it will change my life. I hope it's not ;-)
- DennisAleynikov 5y ago
  at 60hz, an electro phoretic display (EPD) or eink will start to degrade very rapidly and consume more power than even a bright OLED panel will. Eink is efficient only when you are NOT refreshing the screen constantly as it persists the last image drawn to screen, but if you wanna do any kind of scrolling, zooming etc, just use another kind of display tech.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    > degrade very rapidly E-Ink displays were declared having a lifespan of 10 million switches per dot: you would have to do a study about how often the average pixel is changed, but if that value were 5s, the lifespan would be "five years of short week 9-to-5" - that is not bad. I am not sure if A2 mode or Greyscale Update with frequent dot switching is a stress that makes the dots degrade faster (not simply "decrease the life count going towards the max", but "decreasing the max"). I supposed not dramatically.
    - DennisAleynikov 5y ago
      those switches per dot ratings are fair, but another assumption here is that EPD takes a non-0 amount of time to move the ink particles in the fluid they are suspended in with a magnetic field. when you try to move them more than roughly 8-12hz it already uses more power than a normal screen and if you run it at even higher voltages and speeds the ink particles start to burst and lose shape, leading to a greying out of the panel quite rapidly (within a few months)
spijdar 5y ago
60Hz for total, full screen refresh would indeed be a staggering feat, however I don't believe that's what these figures are. One of the things that makes e-ink so hard in the first place is the multiple and proprietary algorithms for doing partial paints or clears on the screen in the most time-optimal way. I can only assume the 60Hz figure refers to a partial paint on screen, so "60Hz refresh of the line you're drawing", not "60Hz fullscreen video". That, or it's 60Hz with incredible ghosting, which I believe has been done before.
- megous 5y ago
  60Hz at that resolution would be ~20 MHz on a 16bit parallel bus (2bits per pixel), which sounds about manageable. The display spec says the display has max 85Hz raw refresh rate. https://files.pine64.org/doc/quartz64/Eink%20P-511-828-V1_ED103TC2%20Formal%20Spec%20V1.0_20190514.pdf https://files.pine64.org/doc/quartz64/Eink%20P-511-828-V1_ED...
  - spijdar 5y ago
    You're correct; another project using this display panel documented their process towards getting it running: https://www.zephray.me/post/archer_bringup_notes https://www.zephray.me/post/archer_bringup_notes They go into some detail on the display and getting it to display a picture, along with some pitfalls. Worth a read for anyone else interested.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  "Multiple and proprietary algorithms"? It's just an ordinary control problem, how hard can it be to come up with an openly-available solution? Ultimately, quality/latency/etc. will be a matter of how much effort the user will put in calibrating the driver to their screen.
  - spijdar 5y ago
    I've not worked in this space, but see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17993174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17993174 and https://www.waveshare.net/w/upload/c/c4/E-paper-mode-declaration.pdf https://www.waveshare.net/w/upload/c/c4/E-paper-mode-declara... for a description of some available display modes within a waveform table, along with a description of the waveform firmware itself: The waveform flash memory file contains temperature look-up tables (LUTs), waveform sequence data, algorithm data, voltage data, controller settings, and manufacturing data. Each AF waveform is specifically adjusted for a particular display module lot. This specification document is for use by E Ink Corporation and their customers under non-disclosure agreements. E Ink Corporation will be responsible for maintaining and controlling specification revisions. To my knowledge, there are very few reverse engineered waveform files or custom controllers for eink displays, and those that exist have inferior display properties compared to the e-ink provided waveform tables.
slim 5y ago
I heard 16hz
megous 5y ago
eInk displays have 85-90Hz refresh rate. Just look up the datasheets. Though it does not mean the same thing it does for LCD displays. It just means you can stuff raw data to the display at that rate. Pixels are sticky so you're either driving them towards white or black or not at all (individually). And you may need to drive them multiple times (or for different periods of time), to get the correct shade of gray, or whatever. So you still need several full scans to perform what user would think of as a screen update.
mdp2021 5y ago
Edit, of the first level reply for visibility: Refresh Time: 450ms (from the datasheet) Edit 2: and that value of 450ms must be the Grayscale Update value - A2 surely remains around 125ms. So, a classic EPD. -- It is probably the display of https://shopkits.eink.com/product/10-3%cb%9d-epaper-display-vb3300-kca/ https://shopkits.eink.com/product/10-3%cb%9d-epaper-display-... so, in this case, a classic E-Ink display - not a miracle (where "miracle" may be some technology similar of that of MIT/Taiwan E-Ink, but not quite the same, with some boosted feats but compromises elsewhere).
- megous 5y ago
  It's ES103TC2 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote#e-ink_Display https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote#e-ink_Display
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    Confirmed, so: https://www.eink.com/product.html?type=productdetail&id=7 https://www.eink.com/product.html?type=productdetail&id=7 Though in the other link I pointed to the ES103TC1 - the differences to the ES103TC2 are not clear. [Minimum] Refresh time - which surely some have mixed with that "60Hz": 450ms
    - megous 5y ago
      That's just some arbitrary number. :) Unless refresh is clearly defined, there's not much point throwing around arbitrary numbers. 450ms may be minimal time for a screen clear + update, just by the looks of it. That is the screen blinking black/white to clear the screen and then painting the final image. That's not something that will be happening all the time...