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I work in water management in the Netherlands. It used to be that water levels were registered by someone manually noting the level at a gauge, writing it down

I work in water management in the Netherlands. It used to be that water levels were registered by someone manually noting the level at a gauge, writing it down, and bicycli g to the next. He'd visit all of them in a region in a day. Now they're of course automated sensors. They are cheaper, there are more of them, they are more accurate, immediate available online, and with 5-minute resolution. Clearly better. But the person doing the rounds each day would also see the whole system each day, notice vandalism, know local conditions on growth of pest water plants by heart, et cetera. Now there is nobody with such detailed first hand knowledge of the system. The informal part of the job is lost, and the loss can't easily be quantified as some amount of money either. It didn't even exist on the org chart, but it still feels like it was essential. So we replace human work with different automated processes, and yes we ignore the true nature of the work.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> But the person doing the rounds each day would also see the whole system each day, notice vandalism, know local conditions on growth of pest water plants by heart, et cetera. Not exactly the same, but this is strikingly similar to some of the observations made in this essay: https://desystemize.substack.com/p/desystemize-1 https://desystemize.substack.com/p/desystemize-1 When you reduce field work to a set of data, there's always something that got left out. You just have to hope it wasn't important. Sometimes it was.
ithkuil 5y ago
Would it make sense to employ one order of magnitude less people doing the same routine every two weeks?
agent327 5y ago
>I work in water management in the Netherlands. Wim Lex, is that you!?
TomSwirly 5y ago
Hey, I'm sitting in Watergraafsmeer, where I happen to know our front door is about 60cm below sea level, so I'd like to give you a shout-out for help keeping my feet dry. (And also, I agree with what you wrote.)
baobabKoodaa 5y ago
Genuine question: what type of bad outcomes does it lead to? Now nobody checks for vandalism and local flora, so ok what happens?
- tehbeard 5y ago
  Vandalism means more than just spray painted tags, it can be break-ins, destruction of machinery/systems. Local flora overgrowth can clog pipes/grates etc. Yes the sensors might pick those up if they affect them. Put what's cheaper? pre-emptive "gardening"/maintenance, or rushing to get a downed pump station back online?
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    I would guess it is cheaper to not hire people and send in a small task force to up a downed pump on average. How often does this happen? would an additional sensor or camera help cut those down? Having a team of people manually checking sounds wasteful. The 5% they miss is cheaper than the 95% more they spend.
wdb 5y ago
Cool, I have family working at the hoogheemraadschap. I should ask her about this. Wondering how they measure the misuse by farmers
coolaliasbro 5y ago
Your statement about "detailed firsthand knowledge" hit home and reminded me of a topic related to job/task automation--single points of knowledge. There is a big push at my employer to eliminate single points of knowledge and this push typically takes the form of voluminous amounts of documentation that is 1) never proofed, validated, maintained, or updated, and which 2) no one ever reads. Makes more sense to have a solid continuity plan and create a work environment that doesn't cause employees to pull a Jerry McGuire. Probably also worth recognizing the value of observing the practice in action vs reading someone's opinions on it. Humans aren't fungible.
igorkraw 5y ago
The book "Seeing like a state" gives some powerful examples on what we loose when we use incomplete models instead of observing reality and actually using local knowledge. It gels very much with your point and IMO should be mandatory reading for any stem person in order to not confuse the map with the territory and be appropriately humble on what we model
- satisfice 5y ago
  I have a crush on anyone who cites Seeing Like a State in a conversation.
omegalulw 5y ago
There's no reason someone can't still visit the sensors right, maybe not as frequently?

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> But the person doing the rounds each day would also see the whole system each day, notice vandalism, know local conditions on growth of pest water plants by heart, et cetera. Not exactly the same, but this is strikingly similar to some of the observations made in this essay: https://desystemize.substack.com/p/desystemize-1 https://desystemize.substack.com/p/desystemize-1 When you reduce field work to a set of data, there's always something that got left out. You just have to hope it wasn't important. Sometimes it was.

ithkuil 5y ago

Would it make sense to employ one order of magnitude less people doing the same routine every two weeks?

agent327 5y ago

>I work in water management in the Netherlands. Wim Lex, is that you!?

TomSwirly 5y ago

Hey, I'm sitting in Watergraafsmeer, where I happen to know our front door is about 60cm below sea level, so I'd like to give you a shout-out for help keeping my feet dry. (And also, I agree with what you wrote.)

baobabKoodaa 5y ago

Genuine question: what type of bad outcomes does it lead to? Now nobody checks for vandalism and local flora, so ok what happens?

tehbeard 5y ago
Vandalism means more than just spray painted tags, it can be break-ins, destruction of machinery/systems. Local flora overgrowth can clog pipes/grates etc. Yes the sensors might pick those up if they affect them. Put what's cheaper? pre-emptive "gardening"/maintenance, or rushing to get a downed pump station back online?
- ipaddr 5y ago
  I would guess it is cheaper to not hire people and send in a small task force to up a downed pump on average. How often does this happen? would an additional sensor or camera help cut those down? Having a team of people manually checking sounds wasteful. The 5% they miss is cheaper than the 95% more they spend.

wdb 5y ago

Cool, I have family working at the hoogheemraadschap. I should ask her about this. Wondering how they measure the misuse by farmers

coolaliasbro 5y ago

Your statement about "detailed firsthand knowledge" hit home and reminded me of a topic related to job/task automation--single points of knowledge. There is a big push at my employer to eliminate single points of knowledge and this push typically takes the form of voluminous amounts of documentation that is 1) never proofed, validated, maintained, or updated, and which 2) no one ever reads. Makes more sense to have a solid continuity plan and create a work environment that doesn't cause employees to pull a Jerry McGuire. Probably also worth recognizing the value of observing the practice in action vs reading someone's opinions on it. Humans aren't fungible.

igorkraw 5y ago

The book "Seeing like a state" gives some powerful examples on what we loose when we use incomplete models instead of observing reality and actually using local knowledge. It gels very much with your point and IMO should be mandatory reading for any stem person in order to not confuse the map with the territory and be appropriately humble on what we model

satisfice 5y ago
I have a crush on anyone who cites Seeing Like a State in a conversation.

omegalulw 5y ago

There's no reason someone can't still visit the sensors right, maybe not as frequently?