5 ms·

Please, go on; what is the rationale for a project to publish tarballs with the n-word in their URL? I won't dismiss your argument out of hand; we'll inspect it

Please, go on; what is the rationale for a project to publish tarballs with the n-word in their URL? I won't dismiss your argument out of hand; we'll inspect its history and evidence together, and we'll come to a consensus. Seriously, look in a mirror sometime; read what you've posted as if it were posted by somebody else. Are you excited for the argument that you've prepared for yourself?

zozbot234 5y ago
There's no real rationale, of course. It's just trolling. But the kind of reaction we're seeing from the Perl community is just as disappointing. The worst possible reaction to a blatant trolling attempt like that is to make a huge deal out of it. Just remove the trollishly-named packages and revoke the person's CPAN commit access until they grow up and apologize for wasting everyone's time. Everything else is just pointless.
- lizmat 5y ago
  FWIW, I would put the actions of the committer for 90% in the area of trolling. The committer is a great proponent of free speech, and uses this to prove that there is no free speech anymore (and choose his friends accordingly). The fact that this may or not be true, doesn't matter to him. Nor that he damages the Raku community with this (as well as the Perl community). However, that this even applies to TPF / the Perl community, is mostly mr. Riedel work, using this trolling for his own agenda (which is reforming The Perl Foundation). The matter has been dealt with within the Raku community already. And Mr. Riedel should know that. Now, there is that final 10%. Whether the committer knows this or not, he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist. But in a country like the Netherlands, that is still trying to deal with "Zwarte Piet" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet) this is sadly not as uncommon as it should be.
  - h_anna_h 5y ago
    > he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist Do you have some specific examples and had the Perl community informed him about these?
    - mst 5y ago
      I sanctioned him for the original cpan upload. Not because I necessarily thought he was racist himself (I knew basically nothing about the dude back in ... 2018? I think it was), but because his behaviour was bloody stupid and going to hurt people and cause problems down the line. He was, unfortunately, unable to understand that my goal was to avoid the "bloody stupid" continuing rather than to accuse him of any particular bigotry, so he got lizmat to force me to revoke the sanctions. He's now in a far worse position as a result, and the "problems down the line" have, indeed, happened. Frankly, as a relatively young developer, full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am, he deserved better friends.
      - h_anna_h 5y ago
        > to force me to revoke the sanctions How were you forced exactly?
        lizmat 5y ago
        Note that at the time, there was no Raku Steering Council yet, but there was a core team, of which I am a prominent member. Mr. Trout was made aware of the upload by Mr. Spek. An upload that had been superseded within half an hour by another one without the offending (empty) directory. With the original upload marked for removal, but since PAUSE doesn't let you remove modules immediately, it stayed up for a week. And *ANY* module ever uploaded to CPAN, stays on BackPAN for historical purposes. Which I think is a good thing, so we can see what we're talking about. Mr. Trout, in his self-assumed role of moderator of the then #perl6 channels, kickbanned Mr. Spek without further ado from the #perl6 channels. Even though Mr. Spek was a regular contributor to the Perl 6 project and user of these channels for asking questions and giving answers. In an ironic way very similar to Mr. Trout. Who, by his own admission, has made *MANY* mistakes, yet until then, was *NEVER* banned from anything in the Perl community. I considered the action of Mr. Spek more as trolling / stupidity / bad habit / young foolishness at the time. And the first offence to my knowledge, by no means grounds for a permaban on the channels as instated by Mr. Trout. I therefore, on behalf of the core team and after conversations with our de-facto BDFL Jonathan Worthington, asked Mr. Trout to raise that ban. Which in the end he reluctantly did. And since then has been interpreted by Mr. Trout as condoning racism. Sadly, over time, it has become clear to many that Mr. Spek is either too stupid to realize what he's doing with his trolling (saying he is a proponent of free speech and using that), or indeed a racist at some level, or both. The commit in his personal repo (which he makes public as good examples of using dot files) was about using the "master" branch as the default for new git repos, rather than the current git default of "main". With as single comment "Get a job, N*". This was no longer a use of the word as just a word: this was adding context and meaning. For which the Raku CAT team has banned him from public Raku places and revoked all of his commit bits until Jan 1, 2022. Meanwhile, it looks like Mr. Spek will not change. As to Mr. Trout: I will no longer interact with Mr. Trout in any way, shape or form. With pain in my heart, I must say that I've given up on the Perl community. And I say this is a recipient of a White Camel award, awarded for services to the Perl *community*. I'm not the only person who left the Perl community because of Mr. Trout's antics. I guess in the end, only people willing to put up with Mr. Trout, will be left in the Perl community. I sincerely hope they will be happy, as life is too short to be unhappy without good reason.
- weare138 5y ago
  I get what you're saying but a counterpoint is that we don't accept these things in other situations or question the outcome. If one of us went into work and dropped the n-bomb, even if it was to prove some point, we'd mostly likely still get fired and no one would really question this. The company you work for is not your personal soapbox to stand on and air your personal grievances at the expense of others and the company. We all accept that type of behavior isn't conducive to a professional environment and when people get fired for it we don't question it. Why should an open-source project be any different? If these individuals feel that strongly about it then they can just fork Perl. These people just want to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of others.
- mst 5y ago
  That was my plan. I'm still disappointed lizmat stopped me. Poor kid deserved better friends.
  - h_anna_h 5y ago
    Calling him a kid, saying that he deserved better friends, and saying "full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am", now it makes perfect sense why Mattijsen is "fresh out of ideas with regards to handling the toxicity in the Perl community".
    - mst 5y ago
      He did deserve better friends. Mattijsen's idea of friendship helped get him ejected from the raku core team (as to whether his being given an opportunity to reconsider his life choices and maybe start acting like an adult would've helped avoid him ending up suddenly single is a rather more open question). If thinking that was a bad thing as well as the racist comments makes me toxic in your eyes, then so be it.
- h_anna_h 5y ago
  Afaik, it was removed and he apologized within a week of when it was posted - in 2017. It just keeps being hosted on a mirror.
  - lizmat 5y ago
    It keeps being hosted on BackPAN, where *all* modules live, even after they are removed from CPAN itself.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Then change that and remove this shit from there, too. It's not as if anyone needs a backup of a commit consisting only of an outdated branch name and an intentionally inflammatory commit message. There, FTFY.
      - Grinnz 5y ago
        The CPAN upload and the commit message are two separate incidents, but to your point, things can be removed from BackPAN through some effort, and efforts are being made.
deleted 5y ago
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zozbot234 5y ago

There's no real rationale, of course. It's just trolling. But the kind of reaction we're seeing from the Perl community is just as disappointing. The worst possible reaction to a blatant trolling attempt like that is to make a huge deal out of it. Just remove the trollishly-named packages and revoke the person's CPAN commit access until they grow up and apologize for wasting everyone's time. Everything else is just pointless.

lizmat 5y ago
FWIW, I would put the actions of the committer for 90% in the area of trolling. The committer is a great proponent of free speech, and uses this to prove that there is no free speech anymore (and choose his friends accordingly). The fact that this may or not be true, doesn't matter to him. Nor that he damages the Raku community with this (as well as the Perl community). However, that this even applies to TPF / the Perl community, is mostly mr. Riedel work, using this trolling for his own agenda (which is reforming The Perl Foundation). The matter has been dealt with within the Raku community already. And Mr. Riedel should know that. Now, there is that final 10%. Whether the committer knows this or not, he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist. But in a country like the Netherlands, that is still trying to deal with "Zwarte Piet" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet) this is sadly not as uncommon as it should be.
- h_anna_h 5y ago
  > he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist Do you have some specific examples and had the Perl community informed him about these?
  - mst 5y ago
    I sanctioned him for the original cpan upload. Not because I necessarily thought he was racist himself (I knew basically nothing about the dude back in ... 2018? I think it was), but because his behaviour was bloody stupid and going to hurt people and cause problems down the line. He was, unfortunately, unable to understand that my goal was to avoid the "bloody stupid" continuing rather than to accuse him of any particular bigotry, so he got lizmat to force me to revoke the sanctions. He's now in a far worse position as a result, and the "problems down the line" have, indeed, happened. Frankly, as a relatively young developer, full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am, he deserved better friends.
    - h_anna_h 5y ago
      > to force me to revoke the sanctions How were you forced exactly?
      - lizmat 5y ago
        Note that at the time, there was no Raku Steering Council yet, but there was a core team, of which I am a prominent member. Mr. Trout was made aware of the upload by Mr. Spek. An upload that had been superseded within half an hour by another one without the offending (empty) directory. With the original upload marked for removal, but since PAUSE doesn't let you remove modules immediately, it stayed up for a week. And *ANY* module ever uploaded to CPAN, stays on BackPAN for historical purposes. Which I think is a good thing, so we can see what we're talking about. Mr. Trout, in his self-assumed role of moderator of the then #perl6 channels, kickbanned Mr. Spek without further ado from the #perl6 channels. Even though Mr. Spek was a regular contributor to the Perl 6 project and user of these channels for asking questions and giving answers. In an ironic way very similar to Mr. Trout. Who, by his own admission, has made *MANY* mistakes, yet until then, was *NEVER* banned from anything in the Perl community. I considered the action of Mr. Spek more as trolling / stupidity / bad habit / young foolishness at the time. And the first offence to my knowledge, by no means grounds for a permaban on the channels as instated by Mr. Trout. I therefore, on behalf of the core team and after conversations with our de-facto BDFL Jonathan Worthington, asked Mr. Trout to raise that ban. Which in the end he reluctantly did. And since then has been interpreted by Mr. Trout as condoning racism. Sadly, over time, it has become clear to many that Mr. Spek is either too stupid to realize what he's doing with his trolling (saying he is a proponent of free speech and using that), or indeed a racist at some level, or both. The commit in his personal repo (which he makes public as good examples of using dot files) was about using the "master" branch as the default for new git repos, rather than the current git default of "main". With as single comment "Get a job, N*". This was no longer a use of the word as just a word: this was adding context and meaning. For which the Raku CAT team has banned him from public Raku places and revoked all of his commit bits until Jan 1, 2022. Meanwhile, it looks like Mr. Spek will not change. As to Mr. Trout: I will no longer interact with Mr. Trout in any way, shape or form. With pain in my heart, I must say that I've given up on the Perl community. And I say this is a recipient of a White Camel award, awarded for services to the Perl *community*. I'm not the only person who left the Perl community because of Mr. Trout's antics. I guess in the end, only people willing to put up with Mr. Trout, will be left in the Perl community. I sincerely hope they will be happy, as life is too short to be unhappy without good reason.
weare138 5y ago
I get what you're saying but a counterpoint is that we don't accept these things in other situations or question the outcome. If one of us went into work and dropped the n-bomb, even if it was to prove some point, we'd mostly likely still get fired and no one would really question this. The company you work for is not your personal soapbox to stand on and air your personal grievances at the expense of others and the company. We all accept that type of behavior isn't conducive to a professional environment and when people get fired for it we don't question it. Why should an open-source project be any different? If these individuals feel that strongly about it then they can just fork Perl. These people just want to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of others.
mst 5y ago
That was my plan. I'm still disappointed lizmat stopped me. Poor kid deserved better friends.
- h_anna_h 5y ago
  Calling him a kid, saying that he deserved better friends, and saying "full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am", now it makes perfect sense why Mattijsen is "fresh out of ideas with regards to handling the toxicity in the Perl community".
  - mst 5y ago
    He did deserve better friends. Mattijsen's idea of friendship helped get him ejected from the raku core team (as to whether his being given an opportunity to reconsider his life choices and maybe start acting like an adult would've helped avoid him ending up suddenly single is a rather more open question). If thinking that was a bad thing as well as the racist comments makes me toxic in your eyes, then so be it.
h_anna_h 5y ago
Afaik, it was removed and he apologized within a week of when it was posted - in 2017. It just keeps being hosted on a mirror.
- lizmat 5y ago
  It keeps being hosted on BackPAN, where *all* modules live, even after they are removed from CPAN itself.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Then change that and remove this shit from there, too. It's not as if anyone needs a backup of a commit consisting only of an outdated branch name and an intentionally inflammatory commit message. There, FTFY.
    - Grinnz 5y ago
      The CPAN upload and the commit message are two separate incidents, but to your point, things can be removed from BackPAN through some effort, and efforts are being made.

deleted 5y ago

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