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>It was like the US Constitution with separation of church and state. Let's focus on the law and leave our religious differences out of it. I think the pre-int

>It was like the US Constitution with separation of church and state. Let's focus on the law and leave our religious differences out of it. I think the pre-internet nostalgia of a proper “informal mediation process” is about as genuine as believing the US has an actual hardline between church and state. That said, it’s funny you turn to “trans” issues as some powder keg when the article is about whether a committer should be allowed to push something along the lines that says “ni—-er get a job” to CPAN. I can’t think most professional communities would have caused a stink about that on their mailing list

okareaman 5y ago
> believing the US has an actual hardline between church and state. Did I say "hardline"? No, that's your word. Of course there isn't a hardline. It's an ideal that we try to maintain. It's a stated goal that we can all read in black and white. We have lawyers and constitutional scholars to mediate disputes over this stated goal. > it’s funny you turn to “trans”... “ni—-er get a job” I don't know why this is funny. Or are you saying that you are offended I even brought it up?
- some_hacker_22 5y ago
  > It's an ideal that we try to maintain. It's a stated goal that we can all read in black and white. We have lawyers and constitutional scholars to mediate disputes over this stated goal. Well you’re not trying very hard it seems. You literally have “in god we trust” printed on your money?
makomk 5y ago
If I'm following all this correctly, the role of the person standing behind the committer that used the n-word in commit messages was literally to purge "toxic" elements and enforce social justice orthodoxy within the Perl Foundation, until she resigned and accused the rest of the board of not caring about the safety of the community. I would honestly be unsurprised to find she'd outright been invoking trans rights to get her way in unrelated disputes; that seems to happen a lot these days. A lot of this has nothing to do with whatever oppressed groups it's meant to be helping and everything to do with the raw exercise of power.
- lizmat 5y ago
  FWIW, she was not standing behind this committer. This committer, by the way, has been asked to resign from the Raku Steering Council over this (which he did). This committer has also been banned for 6 months over this from any Raku community activity, specifically on the IRC channels by the Raku CAT. And she has terminated her relationship with the committer. The toxic element to be "purged" from the Perl community, has now returned and will make the Perl community more to his image . Which will only get more people to leave the Perl community. But that is no different from the past 15 years that I have had the pleasure of dealing with this toxic element.
  - mst 5y ago
    Liz, as the person who forced me to reverse Patrick Spek's original ban for uploading a perl6-n_gg_r directory to cpan, I don't feel your opinion on my "toxicity" is necessarily universal. I am, however, very glad that the Raku CAT has since corrected your mistake. I am very well aware that I can be an asshole sometimes, but unlike you I don't defend outright anti-black racism because, to quote Patrick, "I call my black friends that" and "it's just a word". Your repeated opposition to code of conduct enforcement is unfortunate but now you've resigned I hope we'll be able to move forwards on that matter without your personal dislike of me interfering.
    - codesections 5y ago
      A correction: Liz has been entirely supportive the Raku Steering Council's efforts to establish our Code of Conduct[0] and to enforce that Code. (I know that part of this comment is referring to events that took place years ago; I don't have any firsthand knowledge about those events but want to correct the record about the present) [0]: https://github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Council/blob/main/papers/code_of_conduct.md https://github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Council/blob/main/pape...
      - mst 5y ago
        This is not the only instance of Liz opposing conduct enforcement, but I don't feel like tracking even more drama in onto the carpet in that regard. I appreciate that she's revised her opinion on this specific case and apologise for not making clearer that she's done so - I only wish she'd be more supportive of code of conduct enforcement in other cases.
h_anna_h 5y ago
> should be allowed to push something along the lines that says “ni—-er get a job” to CPAN He didn't push it to CPAN, his dotfiles repo is not on CPAN. Please do not spread misinformation. Edit: The CPAN thing is different. It contains a directory whose name is "perl6-nigger", you can find it at http://backpan.perl.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/App-Cpan6-0.8.0.tar.gz http://backpan.perl.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/App-Cpan6...
- zozbot234 5y ago
  OTOH, he did push a funny-named package to CPAN, as seen in OP's screenshots.
- cygx 5y ago
  From the article: Riedel's complaint to the board points out that this isn't Spek's first racism rodeo. CPAN still offers downloads containing a 2017-era tarball from Spek with a folder named "perl6-n[word]". We downloaded the linked file and can verify that it's still available from CPAN, and it does in fact contain that folder.

okareaman 5y ago

> believing the US has an actual hardline between church and state. Did I say "hardline"? No, that's your word. Of course there isn't a hardline. It's an ideal that we try to maintain. It's a stated goal that we can all read in black and white. We have lawyers and constitutional scholars to mediate disputes over this stated goal. > it’s funny you turn to “trans”... “ni—-er get a job” I don't know why this is funny. Or are you saying that you are offended I even brought it up?

some_hacker_22 5y ago
> It's an ideal that we try to maintain. It's a stated goal that we can all read in black and white. We have lawyers and constitutional scholars to mediate disputes over this stated goal. Well you’re not trying very hard it seems. You literally have “in god we trust” printed on your money?

makomk 5y ago

If I'm following all this correctly, the role of the person standing behind the committer that used the n-word in commit messages was literally to purge "toxic" elements and enforce social justice orthodoxy within the Perl Foundation, until she resigned and accused the rest of the board of not caring about the safety of the community. I would honestly be unsurprised to find she'd outright been invoking trans rights to get her way in unrelated disputes; that seems to happen a lot these days. A lot of this has nothing to do with whatever oppressed groups it's meant to be helping and everything to do with the raw exercise of power.

lizmat 5y ago
FWIW, she was not standing behind this committer. This committer, by the way, has been asked to resign from the Raku Steering Council over this (which he did). This committer has also been banned for 6 months over this from any Raku community activity, specifically on the IRC channels by the Raku CAT. And she has terminated her relationship with the committer. The toxic element to be "purged" from the Perl community, has now returned and will make the Perl community more to his image . Which will only get more people to leave the Perl community. But that is no different from the past 15 years that I have had the pleasure of dealing with this toxic element.
- mst 5y ago
  Liz, as the person who forced me to reverse Patrick Spek's original ban for uploading a perl6-n_gg_r directory to cpan, I don't feel your opinion on my "toxicity" is necessarily universal. I am, however, very glad that the Raku CAT has since corrected your mistake. I am very well aware that I can be an asshole sometimes, but unlike you I don't defend outright anti-black racism because, to quote Patrick, "I call my black friends that" and "it's just a word". Your repeated opposition to code of conduct enforcement is unfortunate but now you've resigned I hope we'll be able to move forwards on that matter without your personal dislike of me interfering.
  - codesections 5y ago
    A correction: Liz has been entirely supportive the Raku Steering Council's efforts to establish our Code of Conduct[0] and to enforce that Code. (I know that part of this comment is referring to events that took place years ago; I don't have any firsthand knowledge about those events but want to correct the record about the present) [0]: https://github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Council/blob/main/papers/code_of_conduct.md https://github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Council/blob/main/pape...
    - mst 5y ago
      This is not the only instance of Liz opposing conduct enforcement, but I don't feel like tracking even more drama in onto the carpet in that regard. I appreciate that she's revised her opinion on this specific case and apologise for not making clearer that she's done so - I only wish she'd be more supportive of code of conduct enforcement in other cases.

h_anna_h 5y ago

> should be allowed to push something along the lines that says “ni—-er get a job” to CPAN He didn't push it to CPAN, his dotfiles repo is not on CPAN. Please do not spread misinformation. Edit: The CPAN thing is different. It contains a directory whose name is "perl6-nigger", you can find it at http://backpan.perl.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/App-Cpan6-0.8.0.tar.gz http://backpan.perl.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/App-Cpan6...

zozbot234 5y ago
OTOH, he did push a funny-named package to CPAN, as seen in OP's screenshots.
cygx 5y ago
From the article: Riedel's complaint to the board points out that this isn't Spek's first racism rodeo. CPAN still offers downloads containing a 2017-era tarball from Spek with a folder named "perl6-n[word]". We downloaded the linked file and can verify that it's still available from CPAN, and it does in fact contain that folder.