6 ms·

Xemacs and ECGS were technical forks. The issue here is whether the n-word should be allowed in tarballs and git configuration. Gotta be honest, I don't have a

Xemacs and ECGS were technical forks. The issue here is whether the n-word should be allowed in tarballs and git configuration. Gotta be honest, I don't have a problem with the "no" argument, and the "yes" argument is explicitly racist and empty-headed.

h_anna_h 5y ago
The "git configuration" that you mentioned is about his personal dotfiles in his personal git repo. It has nothing to do with the perl community. > and the "yes" argument is explicitly racist and empty-headed. If you are dismissing any possible "yes" argument before it is even made as "racist and empty-headed" I would say that you have withdrawn yourself from public discourse.
- myWindoonn 5y ago
  Please, go on; what is the rationale for a project to publish tarballs with the n-word in their URL? I won't dismiss your argument out of hand; we'll inspect its history and evidence together, and we'll come to a consensus. Seriously, look in a mirror sometime; read what you've posted as if it were posted by somebody else. Are you excited for the argument that you've prepared for yourself?
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    There's no real rationale, of course. It's just trolling. But the kind of reaction we're seeing from the Perl community is just as disappointing. The worst possible reaction to a blatant trolling attempt like that is to make a huge deal out of it. Just remove the trollishly-named packages and revoke the person's CPAN commit access until they grow up and apologize for wasting everyone's time. Everything else is just pointless.
    - lizmat 5y ago
      FWIW, I would put the actions of the committer for 90% in the area of trolling. The committer is a great proponent of free speech, and uses this to prove that there is no free speech anymore (and choose his friends accordingly). The fact that this may or not be true, doesn't matter to him. Nor that he damages the Raku community with this (as well as the Perl community). However, that this even applies to TPF / the Perl community, is mostly mr. Riedel work, using this trolling for his own agenda (which is reforming The Perl Foundation). The matter has been dealt with within the Raku community already. And Mr. Riedel should know that. Now, there is that final 10%. Whether the committer knows this or not, he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist. But in a country like the Netherlands, that is still trying to deal with "Zwarte Piet" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet) this is sadly not as uncommon as it should be.
      - h_anna_h 5y ago
        > he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist Do you have some specific examples and had the Perl community informed him about these?
        mst 5y ago
        I sanctioned him for the original cpan upload. Not because I necessarily thought he was racist himself (I knew basically nothing about the dude back in ... 2018? I think it was), but because his behaviour was bloody stupid and going to hurt people and cause problems down the line. He was, unfortunately, unable to understand that my goal was to avoid the "bloody stupid" continuing rather than to accuse him of any particular bigotry, so he got lizmat to force me to revoke the sanctions. He's now in a far worse position as a result, and the "problems down the line" have, indeed, happened. Frankly, as a relatively young developer, full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am, he deserved better friends.
        h_anna_h 5y ago
        > to force me to revoke the sanctions How were you forced exactly?
    - weare138 5y ago
      I get what you're saying but a counterpoint is that we don't accept these things in other situations or question the outcome. If one of us went into work and dropped the n-bomb, even if it was to prove some point, we'd mostly likely still get fired and no one would really question this. The company you work for is not your personal soapbox to stand on and air your personal grievances at the expense of others and the company. We all accept that type of behavior isn't conducive to a professional environment and when people get fired for it we don't question it. Why should an open-source project be any different? If these individuals feel that strongly about it then they can just fork Perl. These people just want to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of others.
    - mst 5y ago
      That was my plan. I'm still disappointed lizmat stopped me. Poor kid deserved better friends.
      - h_anna_h 5y ago
        Calling him a kid, saying that he deserved better friends, and saying "full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am", now it makes perfect sense why Mattijsen is "fresh out of ideas with regards to handling the toxicity in the Perl community".
        mst 5y ago
        He did deserve better friends. Mattijsen's idea of friendship helped get him ejected from the raku core team (as to whether his being given an opportunity to reconsider his life choices and maybe start acting like an adult would've helped avoid him ending up suddenly single is a rather more open question). If thinking that was a bad thing as well as the racist comments makes me toxic in your eyes, then so be it.
    - h_anna_h 5y ago
      Afaik, it was removed and he apologized within a week of when it was posted - in 2017. It just keeps being hosted on a mirror.
      - lizmat 5y ago
        It keeps being hosted on BackPAN, where *all* modules live, even after they are removed from CPAN itself.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        Then change that and remove this shit from there, too. It's not as if anyone needs a backup of a commit consisting only of an outdated branch name and an intentionally inflammatory commit message. There, FTFY.
        Grinnz 5y ago
        The CPAN upload and the commit message are two separate incidents, but to your point, things can be removed from BackPAN through some effort, and efforts are being made.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

h_anna_h 5y ago

The "git configuration" that you mentioned is about his personal dotfiles in his personal git repo. It has nothing to do with the perl community. > and the "yes" argument is explicitly racist and empty-headed. If you are dismissing any possible "yes" argument before it is even made as "racist and empty-headed" I would say that you have withdrawn yourself from public discourse.

myWindoonn 5y ago
Please, go on; what is the rationale for a project to publish tarballs with the n-word in their URL? I won't dismiss your argument out of hand; we'll inspect its history and evidence together, and we'll come to a consensus. Seriously, look in a mirror sometime; read what you've posted as if it were posted by somebody else. Are you excited for the argument that you've prepared for yourself?
- zozbot234 5y ago
  There's no real rationale, of course. It's just trolling. But the kind of reaction we're seeing from the Perl community is just as disappointing. The worst possible reaction to a blatant trolling attempt like that is to make a huge deal out of it. Just remove the trollishly-named packages and revoke the person's CPAN commit access until they grow up and apologize for wasting everyone's time. Everything else is just pointless.
  - lizmat 5y ago
    FWIW, I would put the actions of the committer for 90% in the area of trolling. The committer is a great proponent of free speech, and uses this to prove that there is no free speech anymore (and choose his friends accordingly). The fact that this may or not be true, doesn't matter to him. Nor that he damages the Raku community with this (as well as the Perl community). However, that this even applies to TPF / the Perl community, is mostly mr. Riedel work, using this trolling for his own agenda (which is reforming The Perl Foundation). The matter has been dealt with within the Raku community already. And Mr. Riedel should know that. Now, there is that final 10%. Whether the committer knows this or not, he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist. But in a country like the Netherlands, that is still trying to deal with "Zwarte Piet" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet) this is sadly not as uncommon as it should be.
    - h_anna_h 5y ago
      > he does show some other tendencies that could be considered racist Do you have some specific examples and had the Perl community informed him about these?
      - mst 5y ago
        I sanctioned him for the original cpan upload. Not because I necessarily thought he was racist himself (I knew basically nothing about the dude back in ... 2018? I think it was), but because his behaviour was bloody stupid and going to hurt people and cause problems down the line. He was, unfortunately, unable to understand that my goal was to avoid the "bloody stupid" continuing rather than to accuse him of any particular bigotry, so he got lizmat to force me to revoke the sanctions. He's now in a far worse position as a result, and the "problems down the line" have, indeed, happened. Frankly, as a relatively young developer, full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am, he deserved better friends.
        h_anna_h 5y ago
        > to force me to revoke the sanctions How were you forced exactly?
  - weare138 5y ago
    I get what you're saying but a counterpoint is that we don't accept these things in other situations or question the outcome. If one of us went into work and dropped the n-bomb, even if it was to prove some point, we'd mostly likely still get fired and no one would really question this. The company you work for is not your personal soapbox to stand on and air your personal grievances at the expense of others and the company. We all accept that type of behavior isn't conducive to a professional environment and when people get fired for it we don't question it. Why should an open-source project be any different? If these individuals feel that strongly about it then they can just fork Perl. These people just want to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of others.
  - mst 5y ago
    That was my plan. I'm still disappointed lizmat stopped me. Poor kid deserved better friends.
    - h_anna_h 5y ago
      Calling him a kid, saying that he deserved better friends, and saying "full of testosterone and even shorter on wisdom than I am", now it makes perfect sense why Mattijsen is "fresh out of ideas with regards to handling the toxicity in the Perl community".
      - mst 5y ago
        He did deserve better friends. Mattijsen's idea of friendship helped get him ejected from the raku core team (as to whether his being given an opportunity to reconsider his life choices and maybe start acting like an adult would've helped avoid him ending up suddenly single is a rather more open question). If thinking that was a bad thing as well as the racist comments makes me toxic in your eyes, then so be it.
  - h_anna_h 5y ago
    Afaik, it was removed and he apologized within a week of when it was posted - in 2017. It just keeps being hosted on a mirror.
    - lizmat 5y ago
      It keeps being hosted on BackPAN, where *all* modules live, even after they are removed from CPAN itself.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        Then change that and remove this shit from there, too. It's not as if anyone needs a backup of a commit consisting only of an outdated branch name and an intentionally inflammatory commit message. There, FTFY.
        Grinnz 5y ago
        The CPAN upload and the commit message are two separate incidents, but to your point, things can be removed from BackPAN through some effort, and efforts are being made.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]