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> That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. If it is, it's a long standing one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei

> That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. If it is, it's a long standing one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku The stick is meant to "wake up" practioners but it's also used to help them learn to endure pain. But also, simply sitting in place for long periods can be painful- knee pain, lower back pain, etc. are common. Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go.

xelxebar 5y ago
Even the wikipedia article you site says nothing about "learning to endure pain". Usage of the keisaku/kyousaku like that is not unheard of, but these stories get recounted as problems to avoid, not as models to follow. In my experience, the keisaku can really provide a spike of motivation, both hearing it echo throughout the zendo, as well as receiving the strike yourself. Any "pain" is on par with that of stiffly clapping ones hands; it might tingle a little bit. Leg pain is also, of course, a thing, but this is purely incidental in my experience. Modulo special circumstances, the lotus position is really good at minimizing pain when sitting for extended periods. Of course, if your legs are not flexible enough to sit in lotus, then even zen monks will sit in half- or even quarter-lotus. I've even seen exceptional cases of people sitting in other positions for medical reasons, but over time, most gravitate to full lotus. > Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go. That's way too complicated. I'd be inclined to say that zazen is about folding your legs and sitting. Everything that happens in that space is orthogonal to your butt on the cushion, which is such a freeing feeling to directly encounter oneself.
throwaway013222 5y ago
Please provide sources around the idea of "enduring" pain. Zen, and Buddhism in general, focuses a lot around compassion. People can encounter quite a bit of pain from sitting but the advice is to relax and "let go" of the suffering as much as possible rather than "soldier on".

xelxebar 5y ago

Even the wikipedia article you site says nothing about "learning to endure pain". Usage of the keisaku/kyousaku like that is not unheard of, but these stories get recounted as problems to avoid, not as models to follow. In my experience, the keisaku can really provide a spike of motivation, both hearing it echo throughout the zendo, as well as receiving the strike yourself. Any "pain" is on par with that of stiffly clapping ones hands; it might tingle a little bit. Leg pain is also, of course, a thing, but this is purely incidental in my experience. Modulo special circumstances, the lotus position is really good at minimizing pain when sitting for extended periods. Of course, if your legs are not flexible enough to sit in lotus, then even zen monks will sit in half- or even quarter-lotus. I've even seen exceptional cases of people sitting in other positions for medical reasons, but over time, most gravitate to full lotus. > Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go. That's way too complicated. I'd be inclined to say that zazen is about folding your legs and sitting. Everything that happens in that space is orthogonal to your butt on the cushion, which is such a freeing feeling to directly encounter oneself.

throwaway013222 5y ago

Please provide sources around the idea of "enduring" pain. Zen, and Buddhism in general, focuses a lot around compassion. People can encounter quite a bit of pain from sitting but the advice is to relax and "let go" of the suffering as much as possible rather than "soldier on".