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> One of the paradoxes of Buddhism, but specifically Zen, is the idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. Practioners [sic] are

> One of the paradoxes of Buddhism, but specifically Zen, is the idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. Practioners [sic] are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. Let me pick on this bit, because I have experience here. That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. Any group worth their salt will know the difference. You can have some legitimate, profound, and just plain really engaging and mind-blowing experiences with zen practice, but you gotta practice correctly. Lifting weights any which way is a good way to hurt yourself, but lifting weights correctly can put on some muscle. On the surface, you're just moving heavy weights around, but that's not really the point. It's the form, consistency, and holistic routine that matters in weight-lifting. In the same way, zen practice might look like it's just beating people with lack of sleep and sticks, but what matters is how these are executed and how they work together. Done correctly, intense willpower and mental fortitude are mostly orthogonal concerns.

emacsen 5y ago
> That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. If it is, it's a long standing one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku The stick is meant to "wake up" practioners but it's also used to help them learn to endure pain. But also, simply sitting in place for long periods can be painful- knee pain, lower back pain, etc. are common. Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go.
- xelxebar 5y ago
  Even the wikipedia article you site says nothing about "learning to endure pain". Usage of the keisaku/kyousaku like that is not unheard of, but these stories get recounted as problems to avoid, not as models to follow. In my experience, the keisaku can really provide a spike of motivation, both hearing it echo throughout the zendo, as well as receiving the strike yourself. Any "pain" is on par with that of stiffly clapping ones hands; it might tingle a little bit. Leg pain is also, of course, a thing, but this is purely incidental in my experience. Modulo special circumstances, the lotus position is really good at minimizing pain when sitting for extended periods. Of course, if your legs are not flexible enough to sit in lotus, then even zen monks will sit in half- or even quarter-lotus. I've even seen exceptional cases of people sitting in other positions for medical reasons, but over time, most gravitate to full lotus. > Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go. That's way too complicated. I'd be inclined to say that zazen is about folding your legs and sitting. Everything that happens in that space is orthogonal to your butt on the cushion, which is such a freeing feeling to directly encounter oneself.
- throwaway013222 5y ago
  Please provide sources around the idea of "enduring" pain. Zen, and Buddhism in general, focuses a lot around compassion. People can encounter quite a bit of pain from sitting but the advice is to relax and "let go" of the suffering as much as possible rather than "soldier on".

emacsen 5y ago

> That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. If it is, it's a long standing one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku The stick is meant to "wake up" practioners but it's also used to help them learn to endure pain. But also, simply sitting in place for long periods can be painful- knee pain, lower back pain, etc. are common. Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go.

xelxebar 5y ago
Even the wikipedia article you site says nothing about "learning to endure pain". Usage of the keisaku/kyousaku like that is not unheard of, but these stories get recounted as problems to avoid, not as models to follow. In my experience, the keisaku can really provide a spike of motivation, both hearing it echo throughout the zendo, as well as receiving the strike yourself. Any "pain" is on par with that of stiffly clapping ones hands; it might tingle a little bit. Leg pain is also, of course, a thing, but this is purely incidental in my experience. Modulo special circumstances, the lotus position is really good at minimizing pain when sitting for extended periods. Of course, if your legs are not flexible enough to sit in lotus, then even zen monks will sit in half- or even quarter-lotus. I've even seen exceptional cases of people sitting in other positions for medical reasons, but over time, most gravitate to full lotus. > Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go. That's way too complicated. I'd be inclined to say that zazen is about folding your legs and sitting. Everything that happens in that space is orthogonal to your butt on the cushion, which is such a freeing feeling to directly encounter oneself.
throwaway013222 5y ago
Please provide sources around the idea of "enduring" pain. Zen, and Buddhism in general, focuses a lot around compassion. People can encounter quite a bit of pain from sitting but the advice is to relax and "let go" of the suffering as much as possible rather than "soldier on".