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Which is why I am confused by a lot of this backlash. Apple already controls the hardware, software, and services. I don't see why it really matters where in

by slg 5y ago

Which is why I am confused by a lot of this backlash. Apple already controls the hardware, software, and services. I don't see why it really matters where in that chain the scanning is done when they control the entire system. If Apple can't be trusted with this control today, why did people trust them with this control a week ago?

zwily 5y ago
That’s where I’m at. They could have just started doing this without even saying anything at all.
- jimworm 5y ago
  But in that case they would eventually be caught red-handed and won't get to do the "for the children" spiel and get it swept under the rug like it's about to be.
  - bredren 5y ago
    The goal is not for it to be swept under the rug. The goal is for it to deflect concerns over the coming Privacy Relay service.
    - threatofrain 5y ago
      Their private relay service appears orthogonal to CSAM… it won’t make criminals and child abusers easier or harder to catch, and it doesn’t affect how people use their iCloud Photos storage.
      - bredren 5y ago
        These people are commonly prosecuted using evidence that includes server logs that showing their static IP address. Read evidence from past trials it is obvious. See also successful and failed attempts to subpoena this info from VPN services. Only people with iCloud will be using the relay. It is true on the surface the photos is disconnected from the use. However, Apple only needs a solid answer that handles the bad optics of what you can do with the Tor-like anonymity of iCloud Privacy Relay. However, if you look more closely, the CSAM service and its implementation are crafted exactly around the introduction of the relay.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      The government cares far more about other things than CSAM, like terrorism, human and drug trafficking, organized crime, and fraud. Unless the CSAM detection system is going to start detecting those other things and report them to authorities, as well, it won't deflect any concerns over encryption or VPNs.
conradev 5y ago
Yeah. I will say, though, I am happy that people are having the uncomfortable realization that they have very little control over what their iPhone does.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Now we just need everyone to have that same realization about almost all the software we use on almost all the devices we own. As a practical matter 99.99% of us operate on trust.
  - hypothesis 5y ago
    Remember that emission cheating scandal? Where we supposedly had a system in place to detect bad actors and yet it was detected by a rare case of some curious student exploring how things work or some such.
    - dr_zoidberg 5y ago
      Which is why open(-ish[0]) things are good, because people can get curious and see how they work. [0] I understand the emissions cheating was not supossed to be open, but a relatively open system allowed said student to take a peek and see what was going on.
matwood 5y ago
Agreed. I think this just shined a spotlight for a lot of people who didn’t really think about how much they had to trust Apple.
XorNot 5y ago
Because people (HN especially) overestimate how easy it is to develop and deploy "stealth" software that is never detected in a broad way. The best covert exfiltration is when you can hit individual devices in a crowd, so people already have no reason to be suspicious. But you're still leaving tracks - connections, packet sizes etc. if you actually want to do anything and you only need to get caught once for the game to be up. This on the other hand is essentially the perfect channel for its type of surveillance...because it is a covert surveillance channel! Everyone is being told to expect it to exist, that it's normal, and that it will receive frequent updates. No longer is their a danger a security researcher will discover it, its "meant" to be there.
unityByFreedom 5y ago
They risk a whistleblower if they don't announce this news while implementing that in a country with a free press. It's better to be forthright, or you risk your valuation on the whims of a single employee.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nabakin 5y ago
This is the conclusion that I personally arrived at. When I confronted some friends of mine with this, they gave me some good points to the contrary. Letting Apple scan for government-related material on your device is a slippery slope to government surveillance and a hard line should be drawn here. Today, Apple may only be scanning your device for CSAM material for iCloud. Tomorrow, Apple may implement similar scanning elsewhere, gradually expand the scope of scanning to other types of content and across the entire device, implement similar government-enforcing processes on the device, and so on. It's not a good direction for Apple to be taking, regardless of how it works in this particular case. A user's device is their own personal device and anything that inches toward government surveillance on that device, should be stopped. Another point made was that government surveillance never happens overnight. It is always very gradual. People don't mean to let government surveillance happen and yet it does because little things like this evolve. It's better to stop potential government surveillance in its tracks right now.

by slg 5y ago

zwily 5y ago

That’s where I’m at. They could have just started doing this without even saying anything at all.

jimworm 5y ago
But in that case they would eventually be caught red-handed and won't get to do the "for the children" spiel and get it swept under the rug like it's about to be.
- bredren 5y ago
  The goal is not for it to be swept under the rug. The goal is for it to deflect concerns over the coming Privacy Relay service.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    Their private relay service appears orthogonal to CSAM… it won’t make criminals and child abusers easier or harder to catch, and it doesn’t affect how people use their iCloud Photos storage.
    - bredren 5y ago
      These people are commonly prosecuted using evidence that includes server logs that showing their static IP address. Read evidence from past trials it is obvious. See also successful and failed attempts to subpoena this info from VPN services. Only people with iCloud will be using the relay. It is true on the surface the photos is disconnected from the use. However, Apple only needs a solid answer that handles the bad optics of what you can do with the Tor-like anonymity of iCloud Privacy Relay. However, if you look more closely, the CSAM service and its implementation are crafted exactly around the introduction of the relay.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    The government cares far more about other things than CSAM, like terrorism, human and drug trafficking, organized crime, and fraud. Unless the CSAM detection system is going to start detecting those other things and report them to authorities, as well, it won't deflect any concerns over encryption or VPNs.

conradev 5y ago

Yeah. I will say, though, I am happy that people are having the uncomfortable realization that they have very little control over what their iPhone does.

rootusrootus 5y ago
Now we just need everyone to have that same realization about almost all the software we use on almost all the devices we own. As a practical matter 99.99% of us operate on trust.
- hypothesis 5y ago
  Remember that emission cheating scandal? Where we supposedly had a system in place to detect bad actors and yet it was detected by a rare case of some curious student exploring how things work or some such.
  - dr_zoidberg 5y ago
    Which is why open(-ish[0]) things are good, because people can get curious and see how they work. [0] I understand the emissions cheating was not supossed to be open, but a relatively open system allowed said student to take a peek and see what was going on.

matwood 5y ago

Agreed. I think this just shined a spotlight for a lot of people who didn’t really think about how much they had to trust Apple.

XorNot 5y ago

Because people (HN especially) overestimate how easy it is to develop and deploy "stealth" software that is never detected in a broad way. The best covert exfiltration is when you can hit individual devices in a crowd, so people already have no reason to be suspicious. But you're still leaving tracks - connections, packet sizes etc. if you actually want to do anything and you only need to get caught once for the game to be up. This on the other hand is essentially the perfect channel for its type of surveillance...because it is a covert surveillance channel! Everyone is being told to expect it to exist, that it's normal, and that it will receive frequent updates. No longer is their a danger a security researcher will discover it, its "meant" to be there.

unityByFreedom 5y ago

They risk a whistleblower if they don't announce this news while implementing that in a country with a free press. It's better to be forthright, or you risk your valuation on the whims of a single employee.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nabakin 5y ago

This is the conclusion that I personally arrived at. When I confronted some friends of mine with this, they gave me some good points to the contrary. Letting Apple scan for government-related material on your device is a slippery slope to government surveillance and a hard line should be drawn here. Today, Apple may only be scanning your device for CSAM material for iCloud. Tomorrow, Apple may implement similar scanning elsewhere, gradually expand the scope of scanning to other types of content and across the entire device, implement similar government-enforcing processes on the device, and so on. It's not a good direction for Apple to be taking, regardless of how it works in this particular case. A user's device is their own personal device and anything that inches toward government surveillance on that device, should be stopped. Another point made was that government surveillance never happens overnight. It is always very gradual. People don't mean to let government surveillance happen and yet it does because little things like this evolve. It's better to stop potential government surveillance in its tracks right now.