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This is a difficult topic because it's so fraught with misunderstanding and complexity, but I'd like to share a few thoughts, not all from the OP but from this

This is a difficult topic because it's so fraught with misunderstanding and complexity, but I'd like to share a few thoughts, not all from the OP but from this topic in general. 1. Meditation as a tool for self-improvement Meditation, especially and specifically Buddhist meditation, has been sold to Westerners as a tool for self improvement for the purpose of "getting a leg up" and as another commenter pointed out, this is self-defeating. Buddhism, as taught by the Buddha himself, was about getting off the hamster wheel. It's about a prince who stepped down, but also who did not try to somehow get a leg up through suffering. But using Buddhism to get ahead in the corporate world is ultimately fraught with a contradiction of clarity, honesty, kindness, etc. with the tools often used in business- deception, exploitation, etc.- tools that are enforced by the constraints placed on corporate leadership. 2. Mindfulness as a tool of blame One of the paradoxes of Buddhism, but specifically Zen, is the idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. Practioners are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. What we have seen is that some unscrupulous people are using this as a way to exploit workers. "If you're stressed out, that's on you for not being strong enough/meditating enough." rather than address the working conditions. 3. Meditation as a badge People will misuse anything as a badge, and meditation is no exception. There are meditation "jocks" (for lack of a better word)- people who will go to retreats and push themselves to meditate in harsh conditions or for long periods. They will then come back and use this as a signal to others of their greatness. It's paradoxical to the ideals of Buddhism, but it nonetheless exists, and it's used in ways that other signals often are- as a way to create cliques and networks. 4. Inwards looking as the only direction Looking inward is great, but meditation and mindfulness are not substitutions for other types of self improvement, including therapy. All of those can be true and it can be true that meditation is great and helpful. Any practice can be too much, or weaponized. Those are just some of my thoughts on the topic.

xelxebar 5y ago
> One of the paradoxes of Buddhism, but specifically Zen, is the idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. Practioners [sic] are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. Let me pick on this bit, because I have experience here. That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. Any group worth their salt will know the difference. You can have some legitimate, profound, and just plain really engaging and mind-blowing experiences with zen practice, but you gotta practice correctly. Lifting weights any which way is a good way to hurt yourself, but lifting weights correctly can put on some muscle. On the surface, you're just moving heavy weights around, but that's not really the point. It's the form, consistency, and holistic routine that matters in weight-lifting. In the same way, zen practice might look like it's just beating people with lack of sleep and sticks, but what matters is how these are executed and how they work together. Done correctly, intense willpower and mental fortitude are mostly orthogonal concerns.
- emacsen 5y ago
  > That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. If it is, it's a long standing one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku The stick is meant to "wake up" practioners but it's also used to help them learn to endure pain. But also, simply sitting in place for long periods can be painful- knee pain, lower back pain, etc. are common. Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go.
  - xelxebar 5y ago
    Even the wikipedia article you site says nothing about "learning to endure pain". Usage of the keisaku/kyousaku like that is not unheard of, but these stories get recounted as problems to avoid, not as models to follow. In my experience, the keisaku can really provide a spike of motivation, both hearing it echo throughout the zendo, as well as receiving the strike yourself. Any "pain" is on par with that of stiffly clapping ones hands; it might tingle a little bit. Leg pain is also, of course, a thing, but this is purely incidental in my experience. Modulo special circumstances, the lotus position is really good at minimizing pain when sitting for extended periods. Of course, if your legs are not flexible enough to sit in lotus, then even zen monks will sit in half- or even quarter-lotus. I've even seen exceptional cases of people sitting in other positions for medical reasons, but over time, most gravitate to full lotus. > Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go. That's way too complicated. I'd be inclined to say that zazen is about folding your legs and sitting. Everything that happens in that space is orthogonal to your butt on the cushion, which is such a freeing feeling to directly encounter oneself.
  - throwaway013222 5y ago
    Please provide sources around the idea of "enduring" pain. Zen, and Buddhism in general, focuses a lot around compassion. People can encounter quite a bit of pain from sitting but the advice is to relax and "let go" of the suffering as much as possible rather than "soldier on".
throwaway013222 5y ago
These are not dangers of meditation in itself, but issues on how it is taught and understood. Some forms of meditation can be inherently risky for people facing mental illness or emotional distress. That's why a good teacher is needed. > idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. I never heard this in a Zen setting. > Practioners are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. Phrased like this it sounds like Full Metal Jacket. Zen, and meditation in general, can push people into confronting their emotions and inpulses and can be challenging, like psychotherapy. But it's not an ascetic practice and the endurance of suffering is not its goal.

xelxebar 5y ago

> One of the paradoxes of Buddhism, but specifically Zen, is the idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. Practioners [sic] are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. Let me pick on this bit, because I have experience here. That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. Any group worth their salt will know the difference. You can have some legitimate, profound, and just plain really engaging and mind-blowing experiences with zen practice, but you gotta practice correctly. Lifting weights any which way is a good way to hurt yourself, but lifting weights correctly can put on some muscle. On the surface, you're just moving heavy weights around, but that's not really the point. It's the form, consistency, and holistic routine that matters in weight-lifting. In the same way, zen practice might look like it's just beating people with lack of sleep and sticks, but what matters is how these are executed and how they work together. Done correctly, intense willpower and mental fortitude are mostly orthogonal concerns.

emacsen 5y ago
> That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. If it is, it's a long standing one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku The stick is meant to "wake up" practioners but it's also used to help them learn to endure pain. But also, simply sitting in place for long periods can be painful- knee pain, lower back pain, etc. are common. Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go.
- xelxebar 5y ago
  Even the wikipedia article you site says nothing about "learning to endure pain". Usage of the keisaku/kyousaku like that is not unheard of, but these stories get recounted as problems to avoid, not as models to follow. In my experience, the keisaku can really provide a spike of motivation, both hearing it echo throughout the zendo, as well as receiving the strike yourself. Any "pain" is on par with that of stiffly clapping ones hands; it might tingle a little bit. Leg pain is also, of course, a thing, but this is purely incidental in my experience. Modulo special circumstances, the lotus position is really good at minimizing pain when sitting for extended periods. Of course, if your legs are not flexible enough to sit in lotus, then even zen monks will sit in half- or even quarter-lotus. I've even seen exceptional cases of people sitting in other positions for medical reasons, but over time, most gravitate to full lotus. > Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go. That's way too complicated. I'd be inclined to say that zazen is about folding your legs and sitting. Everything that happens in that space is orthogonal to your butt on the cushion, which is such a freeing feeling to directly encounter oneself.
- throwaway013222 5y ago
  Please provide sources around the idea of "enduring" pain. Zen, and Buddhism in general, focuses a lot around compassion. People can encounter quite a bit of pain from sitting but the advice is to relax and "let go" of the suffering as much as possible rather than "soldier on".

throwaway013222 5y ago

These are not dangers of meditation in itself, but issues on how it is taught and understood. Some forms of meditation can be inherently risky for people facing mental illness or emotional distress. That's why a good teacher is needed. > idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. I never heard this in a Zen setting. > Practioners are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. Phrased like this it sounds like Full Metal Jacket. Zen, and meditation in general, can push people into confronting their emotions and inpulses and can be challenging, like psychotherapy. But it's not an ascetic practice and the endurance of suffering is not its goal.