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And... Apple misses the point of the criticism completely. This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new us
by cletus 5y ago
And... Apple misses the point of the criticism completely.
This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access.
The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist.
I don't buy into theories that Apple is being pressured or coerced on any of this. I believe it's far more likely this is just tone-deaf but well-intentioned incompetence. It's classic "why won't anyone think of the children?" and we've seen it time and time again with encryption backdoors and similar.
The big question for me is how and why Tim Cook and Apple's board signed off on a plan to do huge damage to Apple's reputation and user trust. If they didn't know, it's a problem. If they knew and didn't realize the inevitable backlash, well that's a different problem.
- lucasyvas 5y agoYou are completely correct and I find this turn of events hilarious. They are onto the bargaining stage of grief.
- heavyset_go 5y ago> This problem is the capability, not what it's used for. Any such capability will be abused by new use cases be it terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking or whatever. Plus there will inevitably be unauthorized access. Apple even says it themselves[1]: > This program is ambitious, and protecting children is an important responsibility. These efforts will evolve and expand over time. [1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
- goodells 5y agoI can't wait until /child-safety 404s or redirects to /safety and there's a wall of marketing blurb (possibly only in Chinese at first) that explains how 'national security' concerns are reported to the CCP. This has totally pushed me over the edge, though I'll admit I was oblivious to begin with. My plan is to replace the MacBooks with a Thinkpad P15 gen 2 running Ubuntu and replace the iPhone with something running Ubuntu Touch (Volla Phone, Fairphone, OnePlus One). Screw not having control.
- merpnderp 5y agoThat’s a smart plan. Apple didn’t misunderstand the criticism, they just have ulterior motives. It’s the only rational explanation.
- tiahura 5y ago“It’s the only rational explanation.” Or, perhaps they feel really strongly about child exploitation?
- nextaccountic 5y agoIf they did, they would have done this much sooner.
- tonyjstark 5y agoThen they would not allow pay-to-play in-app purchases
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- merpnderp 5y agoAs another commentator stated, if they actually cared about this issue, they would have done what all the other cloud providers have been doing for many years, and what everyone opposed to this wants them to do - just scan the cloud. That's all they're effectively doing right now, only with the scanning happening on a person's private device.
- hypothesis 5y agoI also note that /child-safety page is only(?) accessible from outside search/link. There is no corresponding press article. This thing is just floating in the air somehow…
- hef19898 5y agoSame here. Just that I'll get rid of MS and Google. That means CalyxOS on my Pixel 2 and some version of Linux on my private ThinkPad. Once I find time that is, which to be honest can take a while. I think the last time I used my private laptop was over a month ago. Phone is different, but again time constraints. It will happen so.
- cyanydeez 5y agofrom ptrotecting children to global ip dmca takedowns. we all know this is gonna be dmca 2.0
- bigiain 5y agoYep. And you know who that gun is aimed at first? Apple employees. Even if you trust Apple and NCMEC to not add out of scope hashes that some government or law enforcement or intelligence agency “asks” them to, does anybody who’s ever worked for Apple have any doubt at all they they’d use this to check employee’s personal devices for Apple IP? Especially if a big spectacular leak hits the media? Apple’s IP enforcement goons are legendary. And not in a good way in most people’s opinion. Particularly Gizmodos…
- antiterra 5y agoApple employees can be subject to all kinds of employer installed management tools and builds, that’s nowhere near the same page of concern.
- pcurve 5y agoI'm pretty sure all cloud storage providers have good idea about who has what pirated content already.
- bongoman37 5y agoMoreover, things could become retroactively bad. If tomorrow multiple countries decide to change the minimum age of adult performers from 18 to 19 a bunch of pics legal today could become illegal tomorrow leading to wide dragnets enabling law enforcement to go through everything you have.
- finolex1 5y agoUnfortunately, I don't think this has been anything more than a small blip to Apple's reputation. If I were not on Hackernews (like 99+% of Apple users), I would have either not heard or given second thought to this move.
- musha68k 5y agoIt’s on Reuters and many other news outlets. The press are still doing their job for the moment at least.
- busymom0 5y agoI think it dominating Reddit for last week might be bringing a lot of attention too. Kind of surprising how tone deaf Apple's response has been despite this.
- d3nj4l 5y agoEven the Apple fanatics on MacRumors as pissed. These are the people who’d steadfastly defend apple against anything.
- AnthonyMouse 5y agoBad press on tech sites is the worst thing for a tech company's reputation. They're the people other people go to when deciding what to buy. When Uncle Bob asks the family computer engineer about the pros and cons of a given platform and hears that one of them scans your device and a false positive could get you arrested for child pornography, Uncle Bob may develop an aversion to that platform.
- norov 5y agoThe only explanation that makes sense to me is that they are doing huge damage to their reputation and trust for bigger reasons. Perhaps there are international or national security issues they are told to comply with that are not quite in the public view yet.
- heavyset_go 5y agoOccam's razor says they aren't playing 11th dimensional chess and that they just fucked up. It happens.
- frickinLasers 5y ago"Build this. Don't explain why" is not chess. It would be a perfectly logical order from the power structures Snowden exposed. eta: It makes way more sense to me than Apple actually thinking this was a good idea.
- majormajor 5y ago"Don't tell anyone" seems like it would be step 3 of the instructions there.
- frickinLasers 5y agoThat would arouse suspicion as soon as someone (perhaps someone inside the company) figured out what was going on. Here, a key person introduces the idea, says it's "for the children," and people are baffled but the masses will forget about it, even come to accept the logic, soon enough.
- heavyset_go 5y ago> It would be a perfectly logical order from the power structures Snowden exposed. Snowden exposed that Apple was actively part[1] of the PRISM data collection and surveillance program targeting Americans. Apple also voluntarily gives up customer's data when requested by the US government for about 120,000 individuals a year[2]. They also hand over the data for over 31,000 users/accounts in response to FISA and NSL requests[2] in a six month period. > eta: It makes way more sense to me than Apple actually thinking this was a good idea. Based on the company's own messaging, they simply seem proud of the project and find it ambitious[3]. They're also excited about the project's expansion and evolution[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#/media/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#/... [2] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html [3] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
- k2enemy 5y ago> This problem is the capability > The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I've been having trouble following this argument over the last week. Isn't it clear that the capability already exists? Whether or not Apple goes through with its CSAM plan, the capability is evidently there. In other words, since Apple is a closed system, the capability was there before they announced the CSAM plans. Their announcement has changed nothing about capability other than reminding people that Apple has privileged access to the data on iPhones. I guess the question is, if Apple does the CSAM program does that make them more likely to cave to government pressure to search for other things? And to do so without telling users?
- n8cpdx 5y agoThere shouldn’t be a single line of code, or single binary blob, on my device that can compute these photo DNA hashes. Apple could always go ahead and add that functionality in an update, but then there would be a big backlash and the opportunity to not update or switch providers.
- k2enemy 5y agoWouldn't users have the ability to not update or switch providers if Apple expands the scope of its search beyond CSAM? I guess I don't see the huge difference between the surveillance code existing on the phone but not used for objectionable purposes versus the line of code sitting in a different branch in git and not deployed on actual phones (yet). I'm completely against this move by the way -- I'm not trying to defend it. But I want to be able to argue effectively against it.
- n8cpdx 5y agoNo, because they’re not scanning for CSAM, they’re scanning for hashes. That hash database needs to be updateable for it to be useful at all. A significant part of the policy protections are implemented off device, so those can’t be trusted.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
- nimbius 5y agoI just have to wonder who green-lit this idea to begin with. Every single other company is riding a post-covid tidal wave of sales. as WFH becomes a reality for so many workers, apple products are positioned to really take center stage for a massive segment of consumers... and then this. Apple intentionally injects uncertainty and controversy? what were they thinking?? sure its just phones right now but im sure mac users are wondering about workstations and laptops? the damage control being spun right now is absolutely overwhelming. im also surprised to see no other players like MS or Google rushing to take advantage of the outrage. even players like Purism seem to be ignoring the event.
- lethologica 5y agoHow much of an impact do you think this will have on the non tech savvy user though? Most people already don't care about ad tracking, location tracking, etc. I think your standard user will just shrug this off and go "eh, I have nothing to hide and it's good for the kids"
- hypothesis 5y agoI don’t like that I have to resort to this, but I was going to mention Proles and point to Wikipedia, except that Wikipedia deleted article about that topic. Yet I can see article’s blurb in search engine’s cache! Everything is a meta nowadays… [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proles_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proles_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four...
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago"Apple is scanning every image you upload" will certainly have a measurable effect on non-tech users, even if the details are more nuanced.
- theshadowknows 5y agoI won’t be surprised if there’s a class action launched soon.
- 5y ago
- laserlight 5y ago> The only way to prevent all this is for the system not to exist. I'll go one step further. Apple should have implemented a system that makes these kind of backdoors impossible. I don't know how or if such a system is possible, but given Apple's track record, they are in a position to attempt it.
- brokenmachine 5y ago>Apple should have implemented a system that makes these kind of backdoors impossible. Signed updates (which they already have) that are not designed to spy on their customers and bog-standard E2E would achieve that. But then they couldn't even scan the stuff on icloud.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago> The big question for me is how and why Tim Cook and Apple's board signed off on a plan "Do us a favor or the AG launches an investigation into your business practices."
- babesh 5y agoYou mean those investigations into app store practices. ;)
- majormajor 5y agoI wonder if "we won't use it for anything else" is really any less credible than other vendors who simply aren't talking about any scanning they may or may not be doing. We know TV makers scan what you watch, even from other inputs, for ad targeting. This sort of capability is already widespread and basically a commodity - who else is using it that hasn't told us? And can we do anything about it short of only using hardware and services where trusted parties have verified the source?
- sjs7s 5y agoBecause most people dont care. All of HN can stop buying Apple, itll make .000001% difference to their profit if even.
- BoysenberryPi 5y ago> The big question for me is how and why Tim Cook and Apple's board signed off on a plan to do huge damage to Apple's reputation and user trust. If they didn't know, it's a problem. If they knew and didn't realize the inevitable backlash, well that's a different problem. Comments like this make me wonder how in touch HN is with the average person because I genuinely don't believe most people care or even know that this is happening. I may be wrong but Apple could've pretended this backlash doesn't exist and did nothing about it and they would lose nothing for it.
- relax88 5y agoI agree regarding the average person but I’ve forwarded the EFF article to friends who are surgeons, electricians, firefighters, etc. Who wouldn’t know what HN is and the reaction has been a universal “wtf Apple is scanning all my photos?”. I guess the question is how big the angry minority is. I think a lot of people blindly trust Apple as a reputable corporate entity and this definitely shakes that trust.
- brokenmachine 5y agoIt was on mainstream news here in Australia.
- beebmam 5y agoPeople need to stop buying Apple devices, immediately. They do not give a shit about us.
- dgs_sgd 5y agoPerhaps the result of internal stakeholders trying to hold on to any vestige of a massive project they've put a lot of effort into. I doubt they want to see it scrapped, even after admitting to themselves it was a huge error.
- drivingmenuts 5y agoSooner, rather than later, I think adding this to all devices will be mandated, by law. Apple can intend to do only good things with this, but governments can bend and twist things very easily so that a beneficial idea becomes dystopian. Regardless of intention, Apple still has to answer to government, not the other way around.
- bigiain 5y ago> I don't buy into theories that Apple is being pressured or coerced on any of this. Of course they were. It’s well known that Apple chose not to introduce e2e encrypted iCloud backups back i 2017/18 or so, due to FBI complaints.[1] This is clearly Apple’s play to be able to introduce that again and tell law enforcement “Look, we ‘thought of the children’, if you want further access to our customers data, you’re going to need to come up with a better justification than that.” If Apple pull that off, adopting client side image scanning with this quite impressive privacy preserving system behind it, and then e2e encrypt everything they upload to iCloud, that’d arguably be a very big win for Apple customers privacy. Whether that’s an acceptable trade off for having a device I purchased run code I didn’t ask for and don’t want to monitor where or not I’m a paedophile, possibly snitching on me for false positives or bad-faith additions of non CSAM hashes into the database, or not is a good question still. 1: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
- gentleman11 5y agoTheir promise is completely childishly unrealistic, the person who said it should feel ashamed. Does anybody believe they will refuse to use this in <country> if the government demands when it’s a few button clicks of work to do it? When market access is at risk, and with apple’s track record? Or that two countries can’t collaborate to save face while doing this? This promise is so unrealistic that it’s just a lie
- brokenmachine 5y agoI agree. "Make it so we are the only ones on that list, or we ban iphones in China".
- gentleman11 5y ago> …Apple's reputation and user trust This is the time to make a donation to a foss project related to the Linux desktop. Off the top of my head, there is Debian, Ubuntu, mint, gnome, plasma, the fsf, wine, or other projects that could use contributions of code or cash. It adds up and could help one of them hire an extra full timer if enough people set up recurring donations
- anm89 5y agoThey didn't miss the point. They get the point. Their point is that they don't care about that other point.